UTH is Fine. Nerf Starving Buzzard.

Posts: 3,223
Unleash the Hounds plus Buzzard combo is absolutely and unreasonably ridiculous. Paying 4 mana for 2+ cards is game breakingly bad. Even if you only summon one Hound, the combo is a +1 as it is.

Change the effect of Buzzard to be either:

Whenever you summon a Beast from your hand, draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast(s), draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast, other than a Hound, draw a card.

All the other "broken" combos I have discovered I can work around with ease. But you let the Hunter draw a crapton of cards, unless he is terrible at the game, it is GG.
Edited by JohnKelly on 2/23/2014 1:16 PM PST
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Posts: 224
02/23/2014 12:09 PMPosted by JohnKelly
Unleash the Hounds plus Buzzard combo is absolutely and unreasonably ridiculous. Paying 4 mana for 2+ cards is game breakingly bad. Even if you only summon one Hound, the combo is a +1 as it is.

Change the effect of Buzzard to be either:

Whenever you summon a Beast from your hand, draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast(s), draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast, other than a Hound, draw a card.

All the other "broken" combos I have discovered I can work around with ease. But you let the Hunter draw a crapton of cards, unless he is terrible at the game, it is GG.
Aren't your first 2 suggestions the same as what's already on the card? Can you explain how that's different from "Whenever you summon a beast, draw a card." And how is a +1 card advantage "broken" when so many other cards do that already? ie...

Adrenaline Rush
Lay on Hands
Divine Favor
Nourish
Ancient Teachings
Battle Rage
Sprint
Arcane Intellect
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Posts: 4
As I understand his suggestion, he's trying to word it in such a way that multiple beasts coming into play from the same source (Unleash the Hounds chiefly, though it would also include Savannah Highmane's deathrattle) would be treated as a single triggering event, causing only 1 draw, no matter how many beasts are summoned at once.

If you really wanted to make the combo harder to pull off, then just increase the mana cost of the Buzzard slightly, while giving it some extra health to make it less fragile (otherwise it starts to become unplayable outside of the combo itself). That'd decrease the explosiveness of the combo by pushing it to a later turn.

That said, I don't really feel like Buzzard needs a nerf. It's pretty fair as it is, given that it is target number one on the board and it's 1 health makes it super easy to remove. Besides that, it's not like you can't play around UTH+Buzzard by limiting the number of minions you commit to the board.
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Posts: 89
02/23/2014 11:36 PMPosted by Sinfonian
That said, I don't really feel like Buzzard needs a nerf. It's pretty fair as it is, given that it is target number one on the board and it's 1 health makes it super easy to remove. Besides that, it's not like you can't play around UTH+Buzzard by limiting the number of minions you commit to the board.


The real issue for me is that Shaman is borderline unplayable in a sea of Hunters. It`s not that I am particularly fond of Shaman (or some Paladin builds, but they at least have some options to make a deck that can get 50/50 vs Hunter), but having played my fair share of Hunter, it feels completely unfair that they pretty much have to play into my combo since the class have so few tools to race me otherwise.

In short, no combo should really make a class suffer a 30/70 matchup by itself.

But it doesn`t really matter as something is likely to change regarding Hunter. Having a deck archetype that most low-level players think is unbeatable while the deck itself is not that impressive at higher rank is pretty much a prime example of unhealthy metagame.

I actually like the idea of buffing Buzzard`s stats while increasing its cost, which will probably push it out of burn decks. Actually I think Blizzard should look carefully at some of the draw engines in this game (Buzzard/UtH, Gadgetzan, Mana tide, Nat Pagle etc) as they are likely to get completely out of hand when they add more cards to the game.
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Posts: 219
02/23/2014 07:59 PMPosted by copypasta
Unleash the Hounds plus Buzzard combo is absolutely and unreasonably ridiculous. Paying 4 mana for 2+ cards is game breakingly bad. Even if you only summon one Hound, the combo is a +1 as it is.

Change the effect of Buzzard to be either:

Whenever you summon a Beast from your hand, draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast(s), draw a card.

OR

Whenever you summon a Beast, other than a Hound, draw a card.

All the other "broken" combos I have discovered I can work around with ease. But you let the Hunter draw a crapton of cards, unless he is terrible at the game, it is GG.
Aren't your first 2 suggestions the same as what's already on the card? Can you explain how that's different from "Whenever you summon a beast, draw a card." And how is a +1 card advantage "broken" when so many other cards do that already? ie...

Adrenaline Rush
Lay on Hands
Divine Favor
Nourish
Ancient Teachings
Battle Rage
Sprint
Arcane Intellect

Because it allows a possible board clear and insane card draw.
The combo can easily draw twice as much cards then arcane intellect or lay on hand.
And Adrealine Rush has been removed....
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Posts: 3,223
Aren't your first 2 suggestions the same as what's already on the card? Can you explain how that's different from "Whenever you summon a beast, draw a card."

Sure thing.

The first one would make Starving Buzzard's effect activate only when you play a Beast minion from your hand to the table. Not triggered from UtH, Savanna Highmane, Snake Trap, etc. I actually think this would be too hard of a nerf and believe one of the other two suggestions would be better.

The second one would make Starving Buzzard's effect activate once when a single Beast or multiple Beasts are summoned. So you could still combo with UtH, Savanna Highmane, Snake Trap, etc. but only draw one card. This would be the best one in my opinion because it creates a consistent rule for how the card works and would prevent any future balance problems.

The third is the most direct proposal. Starving Buzzard would work as it does now except it would not work with Unleash the Hounds. This would still leave some insane draw combos open but those combos would require either involvement from the opponent or far more clever plays.

02/23/2014 07:59 PMPosted by copypasta
And how is a +1 card advantage "broken" when so many other cards do that already? ie...

Adrenaline Rush
Lay on Hands
Divine Favor
Nourish
Ancient Teachings
Battle Rage
Sprint
Arcane Intellect

You are correct; a +1 card advantage is not broken. Every class has at least one. But UtH + Buzzard typically gives you a +3 advantage or better. That is what this is about.
Edited by JohnKelly on 2/24/2014 11:12 AM PST
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Posts: 169
Druid have Wrath + Star fire + Ancient of lore + Nourish as drawing cards.
Hunter have buzzard (don't dare to say we have flare and tracking because both are the biggest %^-* on earth)
Mage has arcane intellect
Rogue has fan of knives, shiv and sprint
Paladin has blessing, divine favor, hammer of wrath, holy wrath and lay of hands
Priest has power shield, northshire priest, mass dispel
Shaman mana tide totem
Warlocks passive and mortal coil
Warriors battle rage, commanding shout, slam and shield block
(all of them cards used, except Holy wrath, with the proper deck, is a high damage directed nuke so no idea why people dont use it, and mass dispel again... dunno why they don't use it)

Which means, 2 copies of each card:

Druid 8 cards, total drawing 14
Hunter 2 cards, total drawing average 8-10 (4-5 beast per buzzard, which is not real, but i want you QQ proof you that even with 5 beast, we are not the ones with higher drawing potential.)
Mage 2 cards, total drawing 4
Rogue 6 cards total drawing 12
Paladin 10 cards, total drawing average 18 (counting 2 attacks with blessing and 2 with divine favor)
Priest 6 cards, total drawing average 8 (counting 2 heals)
Shaman 2 cards, total drawing average 4 (2 ticks with totems)
Warlocks 2 cards, total drawing average ? no !@#$ing idea, lets say 6
Warriors 8 cards, total drawing average, 10 ( 2 with each battle rage)
Edited by Shadow on 2/24/2014 11:23 AM PST
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Posts: 3,223
@Shadow: I am not proposing we remove Starving Buzzard away from the game. In fact, it seems that the class could use another draw option. Buzzard is still a problem when combined with UtH.
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Posts: 169
Its not a problem, its our only way to draw cards, no buzzard, no draw.

I already explain this too many times, that's 2 of 30 cards. 1 of 15. If you are unlucky enough you will not see either buzzard or UTH, or it will be too late.

If you have "normal" luck, you will see them on time to play them and keep you in game.

If you are extremely lucky, opposite to first option, you will have the 2 combos quite fast thanks to opponent flooding board.
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Posts: 3,223
02/24/2014 11:29 AMPosted by Shadow
Its not a problem, its our only way to draw cards, no buzzard, no draw.

Tracking. Flare. Neutral minions. Stop whining and learn how to use them. I have lost games to Hunters who have used those cards, your inability to use them is your own fault.

02/24/2014 11:29 AMPosted by Shadow
I already explain this too many times, that's 2 of 30 cards. 1 of 15. If you are unlucky enough you will not see either buzzard or UTH, or it will be too late.

If you have "normal" luck, you will see them on time to play them and keep you in game.

If you are extremely lucky, opposite to first option, you will have the 2 combos quite fast thanks to opponent flooding board.

That is not how odds work. The odds of your opponent pulling off the combo are much greater than that. Why? Because you are not drawing only one card. You are drawing 3-4, plus 1 every turn. Can someone do the math on this? Mine's a little rusty.

Also consider the opponent's position - they simply have no way to counter same-turn Buzzard + Hounds combo. None. Yes, you can counter the Hounds by playing Taunt minions. You cannot counter the insane draw power from the Buzzard.
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Posts: 530
02/24/2014 11:10 AMPosted by JohnKelly

You are correct; a +1 card advantage is not broken. Every class has at least one. But UtH + Buzzard typically gives you a +3 advantage or better. That is what this is about.


You would have to summon 3 hounds to get a +1

Buzzard+UTH=2 cards
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Posts: 1,170
If hounds drew one card off of buzzard, it would be the correct fix imo.
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Posts: 3,223
Shadow, you "argument" is merely petty ranting and therefore not worth my time.

02/24/2014 12:04 PMPosted by Shifty

You are correct; a +1 card advantage is not broken. Every class has at least one. But UtH + Buzzard typically gives you a +3 advantage or better. That is what this is about.


You would have to summon 3 hounds to get a +1

Buzzard+UTH=2 cards

Nope.

Card advantage does not only apply to cards in hand. Buzzard is still a card on the board that stays in play; no gain or removal by it being there. UtH gives you a minion for every minion your opponent has and also removes itself; ergo it is a +1 if your opponent has at least one minion. Add Buzzard on top of that and you can clearly see why the combo gives Hunters a ridiculous advantage.
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Posts: 530
02/24/2014 01:07 PMPosted by JohnKelly
Shadow, you "argument" is merely petty ranting and therefore not worth my time.



You would have to summon 3 hounds to get a +1

Buzzard+UTH=2 cards

Nope.

Card advantage does not only apply to cards in hand. Buzzard is still a card on the board that stays in play; no gain or removal by it being there. UtH gives you a minion for every minion your opponent has and also removes itself; ergo it is a +1 if your opponent has at least one minion. Add Buzzard on top of that and you can clearly see why the combo gives Hunters a ridiculous advantage.


Buzzard is still a card though correct? So you have to make a spot for it in you deck. The card itself gives you no advantages and is still a -1 in terms of card advantage. The card itself also rarely trades with another card and can be cleared by every aoe and several hero powers.

Buzzard plus UTH is a 2 card + 4 mana play that gets you somewhere between 1 and 6 cards back. You need at least two minions on the field for the hunter to replace the cards in hand (like novice for instance) card advantage is only gained after those 2 cards. That also assumes you can put that combo together which in many games you can't.

I would happily trade buzzard for any other sort of card draw (ex:arcane intellect) because it would allow me to spend those other two card spots on minions that actually help me control the board. Until then I'm stuck including 4 cards into a deck that I may or may not be able to use.
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Posts: 169
02/24/2014 01:07 PMPosted by JohnKelly
Shadow, you "argument" is merely petty ranting and therefore not worth my time.


You asked for maths, you got them.

Problem is that you want to deny that is a fact of luck getting the Buzzard, and you want to keep lying to yourself. So you keep with your happy life thinking "I am freaking good, but i lose to hunters because they are OP".

Ok, keep the attitude, i am sure it would help you a lot in your life, denying is the best option.
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Posts: 1,739
02/24/2014 03:33 AMPosted by Toget
That said, I don't really feel like Buzzard needs a nerf. It's pretty fair as it is, given that it is target number one on the board and it's 1 health makes it super easy to remove. Besides that, it's not like you can't play around UTH+Buzzard by limiting the number of minions you commit to the board.


The real issue for me is that Shaman is borderline unplayable in a sea of Hunters. It`s not that I am particularly fond of Shaman (or some Paladin builds, but they at least have some options to make a deck that can get 50/50 vs Hunter), but having played my fair share of Hunter, it feels completely unfair that they pretty much have to play into my combo since the class have so few tools to race me otherwise.

In short, no combo should really make a class suffer a 30/70 matchup by itself.

But it doesn`t really matter as something is likely to change regarding Hunter. Having a deck archetype that most low-level players think is unbeatable while the deck itself is not that impressive at higher rank is pretty much a prime example of unhealthy metagame.

I actually like the idea of buffing Buzzard`s stats while increasing its cost, which will probably push it out of burn decks. Actually I think Blizzard should look carefully at some of the draw engines in this game (Buzzard/UtH, Gadgetzan, Mana tide, Nat Pagle etc) as they are likely to get completely out of hand when they add more cards to the game.


Every class has its strong and weak matchups, that's no reason to nerf anything. Buzzard is fine, UTH is fine, please stop offering ways to fix things that aren't broken in the first place and instead learn how to beat them with the variety of tools available to each and every one of us.
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Posts: 3,223
Buzzard is still a card though correct? So you have to make a spot for it in you deck. The card itself gives you no advantages and is still a -1 in terms of card advantage. The card itself also rarely trades with another card and can be cleared by every aoe and several hero powers.

Buzzard plus UTH is a 2 card + 4 mana play that gets you somewhere between 1 and 6 cards back. You need at least two minions on the field for the hunter to replace the cards in hand (like novice for instance) card advantage is only gained after those 2 cards. That also assumes you can put that combo together which in many games you can't.

You are misunderstanding card advantage.

Cards in-play + cards in hand - opponent's cards in play + opponent's cards in hand = card (dis)advantage. It is (usually) a good way to measure how well or poorly you are doing in a CCG. Buzzard is a card in play, so you do not loose or gain advantage by playing it; granted your opponent may be in a position to kill it for free (ie. he has a minion on the board or is a Mage). UtH does not stay in play, but it also puts cards into play, so you only loose card advantage with it if you play it when your opponent has no minions. Also granted, those hounds may die fairly quickly because they usually only have 1 hit point.

But combine the two together - if your opponent has as few as three minions you get three hounds in play and three cards in your hand. Even if we count Buzzard against the Hunter, that's a +4.

@OwlRaider: Nice opinion. Try backing it up with actual points next time.
Edited by JohnKelly on 2/24/2014 2:26 PM PST
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Posts: 224
Your math is not rusty, you have 0 idea about what you talking.

1 buzzard per 15 cards, this are your odds to get it

1st card 6.67%
2nd card 7.14%
3rd card 7.69%
4th card 8.33%
5th card 9.09%
6th card 10.00%
7th card 11.11%
8th card 12.50%
9th card 14.28%
10th card 16.67%
11th card 20%
12th card 25%
13th card 33%
14th card 50%
15th card 100%

Chances to be in any position from 1 to 15 same, 6.67%

By the way, chances are sightly higher considering is 2 of 30, but i don't to calculate them, so i take 1 of 15.
No. There is obviously not a 100% chance of getting a buzzard after the 15th card drawn. Here the odds that I calculated by using markov chains. Assuming you are going first and would trade any non-buzzard card at the start, the odds of drawing at least 1 buzzard are;

cards 1-3: 19.31%
cards 1-3 after redraw: 34.89%
card 4: 39.71%
card 5: 44.35%
card 6: 48.80%
card 7: 53.07%
card 8: 57.15%
card 9: 61.05%
card 10: 64.76%
card 11: 68.28%
card 12: 71.62%
card 13: 74.77%
card 14: 77.74%
card 15: 80.52%
card 16: 83.12%
card 17: 85.53%
card 18: 87.76%
card 19: 89.80%
card 20: 91.65%
card 21: 93.32%
card 22: 94.81%
card 23: 96.10%
card 24: 97.22
card 25: 98.15%
card 26: 98.89%
card 27: 99.44%
card 28: 99.81%
card 29: 100%
card 30: 100%
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