UTH is Fine. Nerf Starving Buzzard.

Posts: 272
Well as far as i understand u can get the same card u drop in a muligan as the new card ... noidea if it's a bug .. but i have mulled away Leeroy once and got him as replacement ..

not sure if it was a bug or something .. but fact was i got the same card i dropped as the new one.

so i guess do a mulligan has the same chance as get new cards, not bigger chance to get them after u mull away some cards.. so its actually only 27-28%.

PS then add the % to get an UtH .. and we all see that it's not 100% Buzz-UtH combo in every game as some cryers try to tell us it is...
Edited by Luffe on 2/25/2014 3:11 AM PST
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Posts: 3,223
@Luffe: I never said it came up in every game or made a statistical claim of how often it comes up except greater than 1/15. Copypasta's table seems legit. You are right, however, in that calculating Starving Buzzard alone is not enough since you also have to calculate when you will have Unleash the Hounds as well.

Anyway, this is all irrelevant. If your thinking is that the broken card combo rarely comes up so therefore it is not a broken card combo then you can easily see how self-defeating that argument is. A 30/30 Legendary Charge minion would only have a 1/30 chance of appearing but everyone would cry foul over it.
Edited by JohnKelly on 2/25/2014 3:38 AM PST
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Posts: 364
How subjective can you be to compare 2 mana +3 card draw, with creatures that charge with cards like arcane intellect? Unbelievable, shameful...
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Posts: 18,234
02/25/2014 04:17 AMPosted by Abata
How subjective can you be to compare 2 mana +3 card draw, with creatures that charge with cards like arcane intellect? Unbelievable, shameful...


Well, for starters, you can be accurate in the comparison. You are 2 mana, one card, and about 3 enemy minions short.
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Posts: 530
02/25/2014 01:39 AMPosted by copypasta
card 9: 61.05%


If you have drawn 9 cards leaving 21 in your deck in what universe do you have a 61% chance of drawing 1 of 2 cards out of 21 left in the deck?

2/21=9.5% chance of drawing a buzzard on your next card

Unless I'm missing something obvious here your numbers seem really really wrong
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Posts: 530
02/24/2014 02:15 PMPosted by JohnKelly
Buzzard is still a card though correct? So you have to make a spot for it in you deck. The card itself gives you no advantages and is still a -1 in terms of card advantage. The card itself also rarely trades with another card and can be cleared by every aoe and several hero powers.

Buzzard plus UTH is a 2 card + 4 mana play that gets you somewhere between 1 and 6 cards back. You need at least two minions on the field for the hunter to replace the cards in hand (like novice for instance) card advantage is only gained after those 2 cards. That also assumes you can put that combo together which in many games you can't.

You are misunderstanding card advantage.

Cards in-play + cards in hand - opponent's cards in play + opponent's cards in hand = card (dis)advantage. It is (usually) a good way to measure how well or poorly you are doing in a CCG. Buzzard is a card in play, so you do not loose or gain advantage by playing it; granted your opponent may be in a position to kill it for free (ie. he has a minion on the board or is a Mage). UtH does not stay in play, but it also puts cards into play, so you only loose card advantage with it if you play it when your opponent has no minions. Also granted, those hounds may die fairly quickly because they usually only have 1 hit point.

But combine the two together - if your opponent has as few as three minions you get three hounds in play and three cards in your hand. Even if we count Buzzard against the Hunter, that's a +4.

@OwlRaider: Nice opinion. Try backing it up with actual points next time.


I understand card advantage you just don't know how to apply it. Minions on field only matter if they can trade with other cards. If they don't then they don't count for !@#$.

Lets say you are playing a druid (most common class) Neither of you play a card before turn 3 and the druid plays a Harvest Golem on turn 3.
Card Advantage:
You: 6 cards 0 minions=6;
Him 6 cards 1 minion=7

You play Buzzard + UTH

He kills your buzzard with Golem End of play

Results
You 1 minion on the field + 6 in hand=7 (Stats on field 1/1)
Him 1 minion on the field + 7 in hand=8 (Stats on field 2/1 with 2/1 death rattle=4/2 value)

In this scenario you haven't gained a card advantage but have lost board control. Druid goes on to clear your board with hero power increasing card advantage and finishing round 4.

Turns aren't just your actions but your opponents reactions to your actions. Only then can you calculate card advantage.
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Posts: 530
02/25/2014 03:11 AMPosted by Luffe
Well as far as i understand u can get the same card u drop in a muligan as the new card ... noidea if it's a bug .. but i have mulled away Leeroy once and got him as replacement


You can, you mulligan the cards then the game chooses from the same 30 cards meaning you could get the same three cards you tossed.
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Posts: 3,223
@Shiffty: Complete and total morons playing the game in baffling ways does not factor into the balance of a card. In the scenario you laid out any competent deck builder would probably have another card to play then instead.
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Posts: 3,223
Combo is still in the game, and the combo is still broken.
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Posts: 1,990
What's dumb is that even just having a 3rd minion on the border makes this UTH broken as $#^$#%^@W#$.

UTH needs a mana cost increased

Or starving buzzard needs to die on end of turn .. cause he's starving and dieing
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Posts: 3,223
03/05/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Ravis
UTH needs a mana cost increased

Or starving buzzard needs to die on end of turn .. cause he's starving and dieing

Or we change how the effect of Starving Buzzard works as stated in the original post of this thread. Simple and efficient.
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Posts: 1,990
As much as I love seeing hunter get nerfed to the ground.

I'm fine with the multidraw mechanic of the combo

what I'm not fine with is they still have MANA to spare to buff the hounds even further for big burst after such an insane draw

Either Buzzard needs a bigger mana cost or UTH needs a mana higher mana cost.

Hunter has to choose to use UTH as a card draw or a aoe burst.. NOT BOTH.
Hence it's BOTH Starving Buzzard AND UTH need a cost increase.
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Posts: 3,223
03/05/2014 03:11 PMPosted by Ravis
I'm fine with the multidraw mechanic of the combo

what I'm not fine with is they still have MANA to spare to buff the hounds even further for big burst after such an insane draw

Drawing new cards is almost always a better move than buffing existing ones. I do not see your point.
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Posts: 36
I personally am fine with the cost of Unleash the Hounds.

The change I really would like to see is Buzzard to draw cards on Beast DEATH. Makes the use of a card life Unleash the Hounds into a board clear, and only in extreme circumstances, burst damage.

Still makes other beasts usable to draw from the engine, but the ability to, say on turn 8, go Buzzard, UtH, draw 3 cards and get Leeroy or 2 Timber Wolves and shoot you down from something like 12+ with nothing but a weapon in play is just broken.

Forces more interaction to draw the cards you need to get to your Leeroy and other chargers.

Personally, I thought this was the nerf that Buzzard needed when he was nerfed the first time.
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Posts: 1,990
03/05/2014 03:24 PMPosted by JohnKelly
I'm fine with the multidraw mechanic of the combo

what I'm not fine with is they still have MANA to spare to buff the hounds even further for big burst after such an insane draw

Drawing new cards is almost always a better move than buffing existing ones. I do not see your point.


My point is Hunter shouldn't be allowed to do both card draw and burst on the same turn. IT's not about whether card draw > buffing.
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Posts: 3,223
It does not matter what else this card combo synergizes with, that is not the problem. As long as the ability to grab so many free cards at once remains, you will be screwed.
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Posts: 1,990
Yeh, Warriors use to have a similar burst draw with Battle Rage. And they nerfed to hell.

Let's hope they do the same here
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Posts: 3,223
Battle Rage was not nerfed to hell. You are practically guaranteed to draw two cards with it like a budget Arcane Intellect.

If Starving Buzzard's draw power was nerfed as I described, it would net the same results.
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Posts: 3
People need to understand the combo is not OP because it draws you cards (quite a lot of them), but the fact that it is also a cheap field clear.

I will show you how insanely worth this one combo alone is:

Assumption 1: Your opponent has 3 cards on the field (even easier when your opponent is playing any kind of early game deck)
Assumption 2: You have 5 mana

5 turns into the game for both players means that you have drawn into around 1/3 of your decks assuming minimal draw

Now the combo: 4 mana Buzzard+UTH
-2 from hand
You summon 3 hounds and a 2/1 buzzard
+3 to hand

So you basically got a minion in the field with net damage of 5/4 and you went +1. Now this doesn't seem OP does it?

But what is broken about this combo is that you can split your damage as you like. You can go for face and your opponent will have to attack with all his creatures on yours to clear your field, which can easily be 5-10 damage saved to the face.

Still doesn't sound "OP" does it? Now combine it with Scavanging Hyena and how sacrificing those 1/1 beasts can easily leave your Hyena impossible to deal with.

However, the most broken thing about this is the fact that you are going through more of your deck. In other card games, people sacrifice part of their decks for the ability to go through more of their cards which effectively makes their deck 30 cards instead of 40. Same thing with HS. It doesn't matter if you are burning cards from your hand at a fast pace if you can replace them while thinning your deck, which means you get your key cards faster.

IDK if any of this makes sense to you, but this combo is frustrating to play against. Unlike other board clears (Flamestrike/Blizzard/Holy Nova) These cards take your whole turn and provide you with a 1 for 2/3/4, but this card provides you hand and card advantage all in once. That combined with the possible Timber wolves/raid leader/Hyena combo is what makes it OP.
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Posts: 2,482
yeah lots of dubious arguments lol. Hounds + Buzzard can not only draw cards but it can also kill minions and kill opponents. That's why it's overpowered.

It's both extremely strong and extremely flexible.
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