An Honest look at Unleash the Hounds

Posts: 152
03/29/2014 08:05 AMPosted by Asmodean
Even if not (I honestly don't know) do you think it is good that a game is designed around the top notch brakets? From a business pov certainly not ;)


Rank 5 is not top notch bracket, it's where the game starts to be about playing with a brain and for some ppl it's probably even higher. And is the problem really that hunter is this popular ? Or is it that there is only hunter and warlock that offers this kind of gameplay.

What exactly is wrong with the rush/combo decks anyway. I don't play hunter anymore but I sure as hell enjoyed climbing ranks with fast matches full of adrenaline.

For some reason ppl think that playing control suddenly means you are a smart player high on a pedestal, but you are not. Often control has much dumber gameplay than rush. Stall, stall, stall ... finish your opponent with big !@# cards. There, I play smart deck now.

Instead of nerfing hunters, blizz should try to ADD something to the game. Something that can go toe to toe with the hunter rush at low skill levels. There is not really a problem at higher ranks.
Edited by Repefin on 3/29/2014 8:22 AM PDT
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Posts: 160
Instead of nerfing hunters, blizz should try to ADD something to the game. Something that can go toe to toe with the hunter rush at low skill levels. There is not really a problem at higher ranks.


There exist already a tool to go toe to toe with Hunter aggro at low skill levels. It's called a "brain". Blizzard doesn't need to surgically plant a brain into players, do they?
Edited by Calculus on 3/29/2014 9:24 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,111
03/28/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Ulyanasaurus
Honestly though, I think even the 1st more "modest" nerf may slow the combo down enough to keep UTH as it is. Quite frankly, whenever somebody plays UTH against me without the Buzzard part of the combo, it feels like a pretty balanced spell.


Dude that would completely kill the class off. It's already balanced as it is. They got just 1 great combo and that's buzzard + UtH. Just L2P already instead of QQ'ing. In fact the Hunter is already UP at higher ranks, which is evidently reflected by it's w/l%.

Edit: It would be balanced just fine if there is some incentive such as giving 2 or 3 cards at end of your turn for each beast you have summoned. This way you gain a lot of cards, but are unable to play it during that turn. Moreover, if you don't have enough beasts in your hand you can't drop them the same turn. But merely giving 1 card per beast at end of turn will be a too big nerf.


To be very fair and quite frank, I think that is entirely possible. I would still do it, though, and then fix the Hunter class the right way instead of tying the success of an entire class on a single terribly designed and ridiculously OP card. It's not even about whether you draw UTH. It's about whether you draw the Buzzard. You draw the Buzzard, you win; you don't, you lose. You go to basically any of the other class forums, and in their UTH thread, the most clued players always say that about any Hunter. UTH isn't the real problem. The Buzzard is. It's stupid. The game shouldn't be a coin flip on whether you draw your one OP card.

Well, another perfectly reasonable fix for the Buzzard that I can see Blizzard making is to give it the Gadgetzan Auctioneer treatment. Make the Buzzard a 4/4 for 5 mana and keep the text as it is. Even that will make it balanced and it may be the best solution Blizzard can make to curb the abuse cases while keeping the combo the same. It's not really a bad mechanic necessarily. The problem is the combination of the mechanic and the cost that makes it so frustrating to play against. To play with, too. I really hate it that the entire Hunter deck is pretty subpar and most games come down whether I draw one of my two ridiculously OP cards.
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Posts: 152
03/29/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Calculus
There exist already a tool to go toe to toe with Hunter aggro at low skill levels. It's called a "brain". Blizzard doesn't need to surgically plant a brain into players, do they?


No, but they should provide alternatives. That's what this whole problem is about really ... that there are not many alternatives besides playing better.
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Posts: 29
please fix hunters its obviously broken
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Posts: 855
03/29/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Calculus
Instead of nerfing hunters, blizz should try to ADD something to the game. Something that can go toe to toe with the hunter rush at low skill levels. There is not really a problem at higher ranks.


There exist already a tool to go toe to toe with Hunter aggro at low skill levels. It's called a "brain". Blizzard doesn't need to surgically plant a brain into players, do they?


Weird angle to look on the things. Once more, the combo more or less disables several hero abilities, restricts the enemy's number of minions, and the hunter can lose the board and is rewarded by drawing 2+ cards.Point is: Maybe the players who rely heavily on that combo should be forced to use their brain once.

To make it worse, there are decks which are geared only around that combo...and fighting those is so eternally boring because it often evolves around massive stalling.

You see, it is not about winning and losing. When I play casual I also love to play fun cards like imp paster, violet teacher etc. I do not need to use them against a hunter because it is certain how it ends.
Yah, sorry, I play a game for fun not only for competition. I must be weird.
Edited by Asmodean on 3/30/2014 2:10 AM PDT
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Posts: 628
03/30/2014 02:07 AMPosted by Asmodean
03/29/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Calculus
...

There exist already a tool to go toe to toe with Hunter aggro at low skill levels. It's called a "brain". Blizzard doesn't need to surgically plant a brain into players, do they?


Weird angle to look on the things. Once more, the combo more or less disables several hero abilities, restricts the enemy's number of minions, and the hunter can lose the board and is rewarded by drawing 2+ cards.Point is: Maybe the players who rely heavily on that combo should be forced to use their brain once.

To make it worse, there are decks which are geared only around that combo...and fighting those is so eternally boring because it often evolves around massive stalling.

You see, it is not about winning and losing. When I play casual I also love to play fun cards like imp paster, violet teacher etc. I do not need to use them against a hunter because it is certain how it ends.
Yah, sorry, I play a game for fun not only for competition. I must be weird.


I really hate both the "hero power" argument and the "But to make a deck that beats this I'll lose to other decks" arguments. You say UtH makes certain hero powers useless...but the mage HERO POWER does this same thing AS WELL as making an entire tier of cards useless. And no, its not unfair that to beat one type of deck you have to sacrifice your ability to beat other types of deck. That's called balance, such that no one deck can field a guarantee win against EVERYONE.

Most of you are about as qualified to make judgement calls on card games as I am to design space ships. Its horrible how completely blind you can be, while still maintaining the ability to type a cohesive sentence.

However, there IS a case to made for the massive arsenal of cheap, effective, hunter removal spells. This has actually been a long running problem that no one noticed because no one really wanted to play hard hunter control decks. They were strong there, and the massive presence of a good UtH deck is just making the issue more obvious.
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Posts: 855
03/30/2014 03:07 AMPosted by Gishgeron
...

Weird angle to look on the things. Once more, the combo more or less disables several hero abilities, restricts the enemy's number of minions, and the hunter can lose the board and is rewarded by drawing 2+ cards.Point is: Maybe the players who rely heavily on that combo should be forced to use their brain once.

To make it worse, there are decks which are geared only around that combo...and fighting those is so eternally boring because it often evolves around massive stalling.

You see, it is not about winning and losing. When I play casual I also love to play fun cards like imp paster, violet teacher etc. I do not need to use them against a hunter because it is certain how it ends.
Yah, sorry, I play a game for fun not only for competition. I must be weird.


I really hate both the "hero power" argument and the "But to make a deck that beats this I'll lose to other decks" arguments. You say UtH makes certain hero powers useless...but the mage HERO POWER does this same thing AS WELL as making an entire tier of cards useless. And no, its not unfair that to beat one type of deck you have to sacrifice your ability to beat other types of deck. That's called balance, such that no one deck can field a guarantee win against EVERYONE.

Most of you are about as qualified to make judgement calls on card games as I am to design space ships. Its horrible how completely blind you can be, while still maintaining the ability to type a cohesive sentence.

However, there IS a case to made for the massive arsenal of cheap, effective, hunter removal spells. This has actually been a long running problem that no one noticed because no one really wanted to play hard hunter control decks. They were strong there, and the massive presence of a good UtH deck is just making the issue more obvious.


Yup, a mage card makes that tier somewhat redundant, however, he has to spend 2 mana for that and this is at least somewhat of a drawback and at the beginning it keeps at least the mage from casting other spells. And what terrible drawback has a hunter combo...umm...ah yes, he needs to gather it...with tracking a major feat, really.

Also, it is a joke that you put this on the same level. Simply because the fireball doesn't kill you outright if you use those cards.

"Most of you are about as qualified to make judgement calls on card games as I am to design space ships. Its horrible how completely blind you can be, while still maintaining the ability to type a cohesive sentence."
Let me guess, you are utmoss qualified and the bringer of wisdom.
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Posts: 5
seriously, they fixed pegal and tink... guess which deck didn't use them? and is now strong at everything? oh and did I mention it is still based around bull!@#$ combos which was the reason they remade the card in the first place.

But for what it is. Needs at least 3 mana cost, and leeroy can't summon those whelps in combo with UTH.

WAAAAAAY back in teh day Blizzard nerf the %^-* out of my favorite card (mind control) because it wasn't fun and it made players unable to play their own creates... I think that it was a good change... I think unleash falls in the same category and on the current patch its unbearable.
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Posts: 12
unbearable are morons like you who cant get out of 20-5 ranked. i would told you to use brainz but you don't have one apparently.
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Posts: 59
03/29/2014 05:50 AMPosted by IPutGodAway
03/28/2014 01:08 PMPosted by Femto
Yea logic of course, except there no true reliable counter but playing crap decks that doesnt do squat the other 50% of your match-ups.

As much as you believe that, it's not true. Y'know how we know it's not true? Because if it were, you'd see a lot more hunter decks above rank 5. Fact is, almost nobody plays hunter up there.

Even if not (I honestly don't know) do you think it is good that a game is designed around the top notch brakets? From a business pov certainly not ;)


That's not quite right; the point I was making is that it's clearly BS to claim that the only way to beat hunter decks is to make a deck that loses all of its other matchups. If that were the case, there'd be a lot more hunters at the top ranks, but there aren't, because there are plenty of competitive decks that beat hunters just fine.
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Posts: 68

That's not quite right; the point I was making is that it's clearly BS to claim that the only way to beat hunter decks is to make a deck that loses all of its other matchups. If that were the case, there'd be a lot more hunters at the top ranks, but there aren't, because there are plenty of competitive decks that beat hunters just fine.


Yes yes please ignore 95% of the players and lets focus on the 5% that is in the top5. Because that's how you balance a game. Ehm lol.

The problem is that the deck is too strong and too easy to built. So for FtP players or players that are just starting to get a hold of some interesting cards, it's impossible to battle hunter unless you're lucky and they draw very very bad.

Removal or other answers are NEVER a reason not to nerf something. It really is the stupidest argument ever. I've been playing Magic for many many years, and this argument is always thrown towards 'haters'. There is an answer to everything. It's no argument period.

People that call others stupid or brainless are obviously Hunter players. Same thing happens all the time on Magic forums. People that try to constructively give their opinion on certain cards or decks get flamed by the people playing those decks/cards. Lets try to be a bit more objective shall we?

There are several problems with the Hunter Class at the moment. The deck not being overrepresented in the top 5 ranks, is not important (I saw some tourneys where Hunter had won, so no idea why people keep saying the deck does nothing in the top rankings). One problem is, that EVERY Hunter player is playing the same deck. There is one built for the Hunters. Just because it is cheap and works extremely well. Better than ANY deck that would contain the same amount of rarity cards. It is already a boring deck to play against, it's very boring to play against the same deck over and over.

Again: I have been playing card games for over a decade. I wouldn't say I'm a perfect tourney player (at least I can admit that unlike the arrogant people here claiming others should get brains), but I can play the games well. I do see balancing issues with Hunter. Very obvious ones.

Just the fact that there are people that suggest you only play 1 creature at the time, or people should play more removal. I play at least 10 removal options in every deck I play, and it doesn't help. I ALWAYS remove the card draw beast or buff beast as soon as they hit the board. It becomes kind of useless though if they have 6 mana and drop the entire combo on the board at once. Even if you can dodge one. The deck will drop another combo next turn. They drew 3 or 4 cards so yeah, duh.

2 mana for a spell that gives you so much advantage, is just OP. The argument that it needs the other player to have a board and so it's not OP is ridiculous. If you don't have board presence by turn 6, or are afraid to drop more than 1 creature, how are you going to win?

Let me be clear: I like to design my own decks. I'm fully aware that I shouldn't be able to beat every deck at any given time. I'm also aware that trying to build a competitive deck other than the ones already excising, isn't going to workout all the time. It does however discourage me to keep playing if all I see is the same Hunter deck over and over again. Seriously, I haven't seen a different Hunter deck for weeks. Especially if it doesn't really require too much skill to pull the combo off. Just stall the game, remove some creatures and go nuts on turn 6. Even new players to the game understand this (and since they got the deck from guides, they KNOW how to play the deck). This is obviously fact, because I've seen many post from people that started out with a different class, switched to Hunter and suddenly reached top 10 rankings and mostly even higher. Please don't tell me that deck needs a lot of skill to play. I'm not saying it's the easiest deck ever, but lets be real here...

Sorry for the wall of text. ^^

One last thing though: There are many topics complaining about this and there's not one topic where the people that claim Hunter is fine as it is, give constructive feedback on how to beat the deck. All I see is people saying "play removal", "Hunter is not OP, get a brain" etc. etc.
Edited by idm on 3/31/2014 6:49 AM PDT
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Posts: 152
03/31/2014 06:36 AMPosted by idm
One last thing though: There are many topics complaining about this and there's not one topic where the people that claim Hunter is fine as it is, give constructive feedback on how to beat the deck. All I see is people saying "play removal", "Hunter is not OP, get a brain" etc. etc.


That horse was beaten to death many times over as well. There is plenty of decks that have fair, positive or even very good match up against hunter. Druid, warrior, warlock, rogue even shaman can all do well facing hunter if they are built properly.

But at ranks where hunter is a problem ppl don't look for real advice. If they did, they wouldn't be at those ranks.

So explaining to them over and over how to beat the deck when they don't listen gets old much faster than whinning about it.

And whatever ... Blizz can nerf the class again, but it was nice to see it being competitive for a while even at ranks where ppl play seriously.
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Posts: 68
Well you might be speaking for yourself but I only see responses like "grow a brain". Not really constructive. If many people complain, it means there IS a problem. It's not a couple of topics, it's basically a spam of topics on this subject.

Just played against a hunter again with my homebrew shaman deck, and as with almost every game against them: I lost. Did I kill off the right creatures? Yep, I killed the wolf, I killed the card drawing duder (sorry I'm horrible at remembering names), etc. etc. I never had more than 3 creatures on the board. I didn't use all my mana to play around the deck a little (not overextend as with many matchups), and still he just keeps drawing the perfect cards and nothing I can do. He had two of those units that get buffed when a beast dies. He attacks with one beast killing something of me. The beatsg dies and those two get +2/+1. So how do I get rid of them? I cast a lightning Bolt on 1, and ofc the other grows even more, making me use another removal spell + a creature to remove it.

Any other deck, if I lose, I learn something about my deck. I can tweak it. Everytime I lose against another deck I know it's because either I made a miss play, they generally played better, they have a better card pool, or they have better draws then me/. I can live with all these situations. That's part of a CG. Non of these apply to losing to a hunter deck though. It doesn't feel like the players have more skill. They just play a deck that has CARDADVANTAGE written in huge block letters on almost every card.

When seeing a hunter there's about a 90% chance they play this deck. I know the deck. I know the combos, I know what to remove and what not to do. I play enough tount (I'm a shaman for crying out loud) and still... Last game he didn't even use one type of spot removal and he still was able to just run over me AND my taunt creatures.

It's just an incredibly unfun and frustrating deck to play against. Of course the rank5+ decks can beat it, because those are full of legendaries and epics. Basically top notch decks. Everybody trying to get there will get beaten down by Hunters unless they have a deck like that, period. It's extremely discouraging to new and more experienced players.

So yes, maybe Hunter is not a top notch tier 1 deck that wins every tourney, but it sure as hell is the best deck BY FAR against any other deck that isn't of the top notch caliber.
Edited by idm on 3/31/2014 10:11 AM PDT
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Posts: 260
I still put forth the idea of changing buzzards draw affect to "Draw one card for each friendly beast at the end of your turn"... means they have to think harder about what they do with those hounds without losing synergy
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Posts: 68
What? So they get the card draw every sngle turn if Buzzard isn't dealt with. And they get more card draw if there are already beasts on the battlefield from a turn before. That would be horrible and possibly even worse than it is now.

The best fix I saw someone suggest is that Buzzard only triggers on creatures being played, not on summoning. With that nerf and UtH at 3 mana cost should nerf the deck enough probably. Though I would love to see Unlesh the Hounds at 4 mana.
Edited by idm on 3/31/2014 12:37 PM PDT
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Posts: 85
I can't believe no one has said anything about combining UTH + Timberwolf + Scavenging Hyena. Not to mention Snake Trap. Get over it, folks. Every single class (with the possible exception of warlock) has some low-cost, annoying card that can be combo'd to spank an opponent who isn't paying attention.
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Posts: 409
You should take an honest look at how you play, IMO. Honestly if you think a 3-card combo clearing your board of 2-drops is overpowered wait until you face a control warrior running Sylvanas + Brawl clearing 2 4-drops and mind controlling a 6.

Hell, if you're overextending that much anyone running a Mind Control Tech would beat you too.

03/31/2014 12:36 PMPosted by idm
What? So they get the card draw every sngle turn if Buzzard isn't dealt with. And they get more card draw if there are already beasts on the battlefield from a turn before. That would be horrible and possibly even worse than it is now.

The best fix I saw someone suggest is that Buzzard only triggers on creatures being played, not on summoning. With that nerf and UtH at 3 mana cost should nerf the deck enough probably. Though I would love to see Unlesh the Hounds at 4 mana.


Yeah, let's remove Buzzard + Savannah Highmane, Snake Trap, Animal Companion, and any future cards that summon beasts without playing them directly because you feel the need to play your entire hand for no reason.
Edited by SlyGoat on 3/31/2014 1:51 PM PDT
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Posts: 152
@idm As a shaman vs rush hunter try deck that is aggressive, not defensive. That's something players often miss. Rush hunter has few defenses, no armor, no heals, little taunts. Control druid can kill hunter at turn 8. Control warrior at turn 9-11. I have seen shamans do the same.
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Posts: 68
Thanks for the tip. I'll see if I can make it a little more aggressive.
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