Is the warlock hero power op?

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Posts: 415
03/17/2014 12:28 AMPosted by Lech
Thats why two top decks in the meta use mostly neutral cards with few warlock ones. Oh wait .....


mage?
Posts: 415
05/01/2014 09:27 PMPosted by OwlRaider
How is paying 2 life and 2 mana free? Warlock hero power is the only hero power with a penalty, so it better have a powerful effect to warrant said penalty. Card drawing is a powerful enough effect, yet not OP as it's still costly.


because life is a resource that only truly matters once it reaches 0, until then you can maintain board control with your hero power and most likely deal more than 2 damage to your opponent due to your superior board control so it would stand to reason that the rush warlock will have a distinct advantage even if suffering 2 damage each turn. paying the 2 mana doesn't really matter if most of your minions cost 1 or 2 and that's where the warlock minions actually do really well because there are several that cost 1 mana which can be very effective at establishing early game board presence.
Posts: 325
Only op if op means opens possibilities.
Posts: 611
Warlocks hero power was made considering some of their absurd costs on some demon minions.It wasnt made with the idea of the decks that are currently being played.
Posts: 3,360
No. Those who think it is OP do so for two reasons:

1. It works really well with a rush deck and getting beaten on turn 5 feels overpowered.

2. It synergizes with Giants and a win based on Molten Giants coming out will feel like it was "stolen", since the other player would be up on life all game until the two 8/8 taunts come out.

Look at it this way, let's say you're playing against a Hunter and you both use your hero power twice. You're up two cards, down 8 life. Is having two extra cards in your hand worth being down that much life? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Remember, except for Mortal Coil, we have crap for card draw bonuses. Things like Shield Block and Power Word: Shield are decent without the card draw and Unleash the Hounds is still extremely powerful without it, but that draw comes free. Every class has ways of drawing cards, ours just happens to be more reliable and built-in, which of course comes with the cost that we have to build decks around it, hence why the viable decks are Giants and rush decks.
Posts: 415
05/02/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Zoid
Look at it this way, let's say you're playing against a Hunter and you both use your hero power twice. You're up two cards, down 8 life. Is having two extra cards in your hand worth being down that much life? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


But it's innacurate and missleading just to look at two different hero powers in a vaccuum with nothing else concidered. What we are really discussing hear is how the warlock power synergizes far to well with two specific and very popular playstyles, the handlock and the zoolock.

life is a resource that only matters once it reaches 0, but if you can pump out twice as many minions/spells as your opponent, then hopefully with a little skill you can make your opponent hit 0 before you do even if you are taking 2 damage each turn to maintain this board control.

05/02/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Zoid
No. Those who think it is OP do so for two reasons:

1. It works really well with a rush deck and getting beaten on turn 5 feels overpowered.

2. It synergizes with Giants and a win based on Molten Giants coming out will feel like it was "stolen", since the other player would be up on life all game until the two 8/8 taunts come out.


I am specifically referring to these two types of decks being to OP when combined with the warlock hero power. I don't think it's overpowered in general but when playing one of these two playstyles, it becomes too strong. I was merely sugjesting a nerf that would in theory only truly effect these two types of decks, as they are the imbalanced and the most popular for that reason.

This aside, I do feel like warlock minions/spells are for the most part horrible, but they do posses a nice selection of 1 mana minions which seems to synergize VERY well with zoolock playstyle
Posts: 6,103
It's broken in both OP and UP levels.

OP because it's endless card draw. If you're winning by a significant margin, then yeah, it's amazing. Or if it draws you that one card in a "Heart of the Cards"-style moment that wins you the game. ("Jaraxxus... OBLITERATE!!!")

UP because, well, it's very RNG. It could draw you nothing except losing 2 health, AND 2 mana, which can easily be the difference between winning and losing. It brings you new possibilities to work with, but not every time.
Posts: 415
05/02/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Polarthief
UP because, well, it's very RNG. It could draw you nothing except losing 2 health, AND 2 mana, which can easily be the difference between winning and losing. It brings you new possibilities to work with, but not every time.


I don't think this can really be said about any other hero power.
Posts: 359
05/02/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Polarthief
It's broken in both OP and UP levels.

OP because it's endless card draw. If you're winning by a significant margin, then yeah, it's amazing. Or if it draws you that one card in a "Heart of the Cards"-style moment that wins you the game. ("Jaraxxus... OBLITERATE!!!")

UP because, well, it's very RNG. It could draw you nothing except losing 2 health, AND 2 mana, which can easily be the difference between winning and losing. It brings you new possibilities to work with, but not every time.


haha why even put that card in the deck if its nothing?

warlock hero power is the most useful power in this game. thats why they can play murlock, zoolock, handlock, control, sustain, and even yet the new naxx cards.
Posts: 3,360
Fight a control Warrior or any type of Hunter and count the cards remaining in both your decks at the end, then tell me our hero power is somehow OP. I can lifetap 5 or 6 times in a game and still not draw as many cards as they do.
Posts: 3
Ofcourse it's broken. Why do you think zoo is so prevalent? Because of the class cards? The only good warlock cards are soulfire, doomguard and flame imp. And soulfire and doomguard only work because of the hero power.

05/04/2014 07:45 AMPosted by Zoid
Fight a control Warrior or any type of Hunter and count the cards remaining in both your decks at the end, then tell me our hero power is somehow OP. I can lifetap 5 or 6 times in a game and still not draw as many cards as they do.


Life tap isn't about drawing a lot of cards, it's about drawing a card each turn. It's consistent. Zoo is so good because you just !@#$ out a million minions on the board from the start, and when your opponent spends his entire turn clearing you immediately regain board advantage because you can put down 3+ minions in one turn because of lifetap. Other classes would just die here because they'd be playing with one card every turn.
Posts: 6
I'd say that since every card you draw from it will hit the board....that's the strongest form of board presence you could ask for...
Posts: 415
05/04/2014 07:45 AMPosted by Zoid
Fight a control Warrior or any type of Hunter and count the cards remaining in both your decks at the end, then tell me our hero power is somehow OP. I can lifetap 5 or 6 times in a game and still not draw as many cards as they do.


1. The warlock hero power isn't about having a huge hand(unless it's early game and handlock) it's about being able to cycle through cards much faster than your opponent so judging your success durring a game based on how many cards each player has left isn't really accurate, at all.

2. Nearly every class has trouble with hunters and warriors right now, and I believe hunter has always been a pretty powerful counter to warlock due to their removal and sustainable damage, but that okay because all classes have their weaknesses, although it seems like zoo/hand lock should be exempt from this rule right?

3. Have you been to the warrior forums lately? like every other post is about how they can't beat zoo locks.

4. Your expecting to have as much card draw as your opponent just by using your hero power? the fact that may be possible mean the power is definitely op. No other hero power can have that much effect on a game.

5. Hunter draws more cards than anyone, so ya I'll give you that. But if a warrior draws more cards than you, you're doing it wrong. You're probably confusing card draw with value.
Posts: 3,360
05/04/2014 07:49 PMPosted by Sigismund
05/04/2014 07:45 AMPosted by Zoid
Fight a control Warrior or any type of Hunter and count the cards remaining in both your decks at the end, then tell me our hero power is somehow OP. I can lifetap 5 or 6 times in a game and still not draw as many cards as they do.


1. The warlock hero power isn't about having a huge hand(unless it's early game and handlock) it's about being able to cycle through cards much faster than your opponent so judging your success durring a game based on how many cards each player has left isn't really accurate, at all.

This makes no sense. If one player has more cards drawn at the end of the game, that player drew more cards. You don't play a card draw if you have something else that's more beneficial at the time.
05/04/2014 07:49 PMPosted by Sigismund

2. Nearly every class has trouble with hunters and warriors right now, and I believe hunter has always been a pretty powerful counter to warlock due to their removal and sustainable damage, but that okay because all classes have their weaknesses, although it seems like zoo/hand lock should be exempt from this rule right?

3. Have you been to the warrior forums lately? like every other post is about how they can't beat zoo locks.

Ignoring this, biased poster is biased.

05/04/2014 07:49 PMPosted by Sigismund

4. Your expecting to have as much card draw as your opponent just by using your hero power? the fact that may be possible mean the power is definitely op. No other hero power can have that much effect on a game.

You're expecting to heal as much as your opponent using just your hero power? OP. You're expecting to do just as much direct damage to your opponent using only your hero power? OP. You're expecting to summon as many minions as your opponent using just your hero power? OP.

Different classes are different. Priests and Warriors don't need to run heals. Druids, Rogues and Mages don't need to run 1 point removals. Admittedly, Paladins and Shaman don't get out of running much, but it's still not a bad power.
05/04/2014 07:49 PMPosted by Sigismund

5. Hunter draws more cards than anyone, so ya I'll give you that. But if a warrior draws more cards than you, you're doing it wrong. You're probably confusing card draw with value.


Yeah...no. Shield Block and Slam account for 4 life taps by themselves. Then you have combos like Acolyte of Pain+Armorsmith+Whirlwind. It's pretty rare for a control Warrior to draw less than 6 extra cards, usually more around 8. That's nearly half of our life pool in life taps.
Posts: 120
Personally i consider sprint or starving buzzard+ whatever (much of the time: unleash the hounds) better, and this says a lot. Hunters and rogues surely draw on average a lot more cards than i do as a warlock in most games.

Warlocks have their hero ability which hurts them and costs mana, mortal coil which is not even half of the time used in a warlock deck, and sense demons which is very rarely used.

Having card draw as a hero ability means that we're lacking a hero ability that produces some result directly on the board, not to mention that we dont have weapons or heal or shield or secrets.

Anyway it seems to me that people are too hurt for loosing too quickly (zoo) or imagining that they nearly won but suddenly getting alex, taunt giants, or/and jaraxxus. In reality this is not unfair at all, it's just how warlocks work.

Maybe you should think more positively, and instead of asking for a nerf of a class ask for a buff of a class that doesn't do so well.
Edited by Kircheis on 5/4/2014 9:26 PM PDT
Posts: 415
05/04/2014 09:08 PMPosted by Zoid
This makes no sense. If one player has more cards drawn at the end of the game, that player drew more cards.


Not true, it could very well mean that the player with less cards simply played more minions, like zoo lock for example, which is the topic at hand.

Posted by Sigismund

2. Nearly every class has trouble with hunters and warriors right now, and I believe hunter has always been a pretty powerful counter to warlock due to their removal and sustainable damage, but that okay because all classes have their weaknesses, although it seems like zoo/hand lock should be exempt from this rule right?

3. Have you been to the warrior forums lately? like every other post is about how they can't beat zoo locks.

Ignoring this, biased poster is biased.


I'm sure there at statistics to back up the popularity and success of warriors right now, so it's kinda a fact. And I value the opinion of 100's of warriors over 1 defensive warlock.

05/04/2014 09:08 PMPosted by Zoid
You're expecting to heal as much as your opponent using just your hero power? OP. You're expecting to do just as much direct damage to your opponent using only your hero power? OP. You're expecting to summon as many minions as your opponent using just your hero power? OP.

Different classes are different. Priests and Warriors don't need to run heals. Druids, Rogues and Mages don't need to run 1 point removals. Admittedly, Paladins and Shaman don't get out of running much, but it's still not a bad power.


I don't expect any hero powers to trump the capabilities provided by actual cards, but your original complaint was that warriors were drawing more cards than you could draw by using your hero power. I don't see the problem with this. I don't expect to do more damage than my opponent with fireblast, I don't expect to have more board control with pally's power, yet you expect to draw equal or more cards than your warrior opponent just by using your hero power. If that were possible it would mean that the warlock hero power is filling the card draw role which most other classes require several minions to fulfill.

05/04/2014 09:08 PMPosted by Zoid
Yeah...no. Shield Block and Slam account for 4 life taps by themselves. Then you have combos like Acolyte of Pain+Armorsmith+Whirlwind. It's pretty rare for a control Warrior to draw less than 6 extra cards, usually more around 8. That's nearly half of our life pool in life taps.


You're forgetting that to shield block/slam you have to spend a card to get a card, lifetap on the other hand requires no card, so your netgain of cards is already better, in addition to freeing up space in your deck for other cards which get better value but don't generate card draw.
Posts: 44
you're asking this on the lock forum, gonna get biased answers.
Posts: 3,360
I had written up yet another response to this thread, but then I read through it again and saw just how silly all the reasons are for those who think it's overpowered. I'm sure that's why you lose to Warlocks, it has nothing to do with being bad or dumb or anything.
Posts: 6
greetings, :) well i still do not think that the warlok power is op; but i gotta admit, that i lost to warlock cards a couple of times now. not played by warlocks, but by priests. i know, i know, i'm a terrible noob, but i wonder; why the priest got the steal cards. not that much into wow; so kind of as an outsider, it just doesn't make sense. i play lots of rogue now (not because of this), but could someone explain to me why i should bother paying 2 man. and 2 health for cards, priests (of all people) can rng-style steal from me? Not as angry as I might sound; just curious ;)
greetings
eumneme
Edited by eumneme on 5/5/2014 6:07 PM PDT
Posts: 1,265
05/01/2014 10:54 PMPosted by Sigismund
05/01/2014 09:27 PMPosted by OwlRaider
How is paying 2 life and 2 mana free? Warlock hero power is the only hero power with a penalty, so it better have a powerful effect to warrant said penalty. Card drawing is a powerful enough effect, yet not OP as it's still costly.


because life is a resource that only truly matters once it reaches 0, until then you can maintain board control with your hero power and most likely deal more than 2 damage to your opponent due to your superior board control so it would stand to reason that the rush warlock will have a distinct advantage even if suffering 2 damage each turn. paying the 2 mana doesn't really matter if most of your minions cost 1 or 2 and that's where the warlock minions actually do really well because there are several that cost 1 mana which can be very effective at establishing early game board presence.


Sure, early life loss doesn't matter, unless you're facing a deck with limited offensive capabilities such as Miracle Rogue or all sorts of Mage decks, where every single point of damage counts. Or, you know, a race situation. Playing against a Hunter for example gives them a free hero power every time you use your own, think about that for a second. The Hunter spends his turn 2 hero powering you, you spend your own turn getting a card and also hero powering yourself with the Hunter's hero power. So yes, early life loss does matter, against all aggressive decks as well as limited damage decks. Against decks like Shaman, Druid, etc, early life loss doesn't mean as much, true, but those decks are more than equipped to deal with your cheap minions and in fact counter Zoo pretty well.

So why exactly do you think the Warlock's hero power is OP?
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