eu average player ranking = hunter

Posts: 3
I enjoy this game, not the best and not the worse. But I am so fed up of 3 in 4 games being against hunters as soon as you hit lvl 18. I understand that the cost effectiveness of the cards appeal to allot of new F2P players, but its turned the game into defence v rush in almost every game.

Lots of posts on here about the power of the hunter, and i am also aware of the good players synergies of decks like warrior and drood. So will leave others with more knowledge than me to discuss the pros and cons of that. but please please no more hunter after hunter deck its sooo borring (plus it changed the game so rapidly from think to win to rush to win)
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Posts: 54
Hunters ruin the game for many people but Blizzard doesnt care it seems. Which is funny because Hunters do exactly the things Blizzard doesnt want to see in this game (rushing for face and ignoring everything the opponent does).

I tried Paladin today and it was a lot of fun i had a nice win streak of 4 wins against other late game decks (druid, warrior) and all 4 games were really long and it needed some thinking to win them. After that i lost to 3 Huntards (in a row) in less than 10mins. Its just stupid and broken. It really makes the game look bad and too simple. Well, maybe thats how its supposed to be. Rushstone all the way.
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Posts: 1,930
Funny that people still complain about rush decks, failing to realize that aggro decks are just as viable and legitimate as control decks and that playing an aggro deck doesn't make you a scrub, noob, etc. The problem is that these people who complain about rush decks come from an RTS background, mostly Starcraft and Warcraft in this case, so they wrongly equate rush decks in Hearthstone to a Zerg pulling off a 4-6 pool, a Terran doing a 2 rax proxy, etc. These comparisons just don't translate well between the genres and it's about time you Blizzard fans realize that Hearthstone is neither an RTS nor an RPG but a TCG, where aggro decks are a part of the game, as much as mid-range, control and combo decks are. All this aggro hatred is simply misguided.
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Posts: 28
I know this is hard to fathom, but there are solutions to the hunter rush decks. AOE Removal, taunts, etc. I know how difficult it can be to change your decks to a drastic degree, but you should idealy set yourself to handle multiple situations. 1 Good AOE usually can wreck the momentum of most hunters played around turn 4. Give it a try.
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Posts: 707
03/30/2014 12:45 PMPosted by Budrick3
I know this is hard to fathom, but there are solutions to the hunter rush decks. AOE Removal, taunts, etc. I know how difficult it can be to change your decks to a drastic degree, but you should idealy set yourself to handle multiple situations. 1 Good AOE usually can wreck the momentum of most hunters played around turn 4. Give it a try.


Aoe doesnt stop the,m from drawing cards, killing your creatures and/or attacking your face. Stop defending the deck it really is quite easy to play and ive hit high silver with hunter as well.
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Posts: 1,930
03/30/2014 01:15 PMPosted by Malice
03/30/2014 12:45 PMPosted by Budrick3
I know this is hard to fathom, but there are solutions to the hunter rush decks. AOE Removal, taunts, etc. I know how difficult it can be to change your decks to a drastic degree, but you should idealy set yourself to handle multiple situations. 1 Good AOE usually can wreck the momentum of most hunters played around turn 4. Give it a try.


Aoe doesnt stop the,m from drawing cards, killing your creatures and/or attacking your face. Stop defending the deck it really is quite easy to play and ive hit high silver with hunter as well.


So killing minions and dealing damage to the face is considered OP now? All decks do these things, that's how Hearthstone is being played... All this whining about Buzzard ignores the fact that the Buzzard+UTH combo already costs you 2 cards, so on the assumption that you get 3 hounds from it(which is pretty common for UTH) you've spent 2 cards to get 3, so a 1 card advantage. That's the equivalent of Druid's Nourish or Mage's Arcane Intellect, yet these cards aren't OP by any stretch of the imagination, heck they're barely even used. 3 1/1 hounds aren't OP either, Arcane Intellect+Grizzly Bear for example is 2 cards for 5 mana which gives you a 3/3 with taunt and 2 cards, UTH+Buzzard is 2 cards for 4 mana which give you 3 1/1s without taunt and 3 cards. Nobody plays Grizzly Bears because they suck and not a lot of people play Arcane Intellect because it's not that good either, and the above combo is certainly nothing to write home about. Now, UTH is much more situational, as you need your opponent to actually have 3 minions on the board to pull this off, with 1/2 minions UTH is barely worth playing, and having 4+ minions require you to wait quite a while to pull off UTH and for your opponent to be completely oblivious to it.

So please explain to me why UTH+Buzzard is so OP. I've never actually seen an actual explanation from all you whiners as to why UTH+Buzzard is so OP, only whines claiming it's OP and that it's common knowledge that it's OP, never an actual reasoning behind these empty claims.
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Posts: 68
I gave perfectly good arguments in the other topic I think ;).

They might just gain '1 card' in the situation you describe, but this is not the case at all. If you look at pure card advantage, then Buzzard + UtH can be a 2 for 5 or 2 for 6 for just 4 mana...

Better yet. A good hunter player might even wait until turn 5/6 and drop wolf along with it, generating possibly even more card advantage and damage to the face. Yes this does take a three card combo, but with all the card draw the deck has and the cantrip/digger it will find the combo eventually (or at least one of the combos) more often than not. I think I saw the buzzard UtH combo being played in about 8/10 games. So it's consistent enough.

Again: probably the biggest problem with the combo is that it cannot be interacted with. Basically it reads:

4 mana: Boardwhipe, draw 3, gain a 2/1 minion with draw effect, discard a card.

I cannot believe people don't see how insane that is against other decks of the same budget.
Edited by idm on 4/1/2014 10:41 AM PDT
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Posts: 289
04/01/2014 06:46 AMPosted by OwlRaider

So killing minions and dealing damage to the face is considered OP now? All decks do these things, that's how Hearthstone is being played... All this whining about Buzzard ignores the fact that the Buzzard+UTH combo already costs you 2 cards, so on the assumption that you get 3 hounds from it(which is pretty common for UTH) you've spent 2 cards to get 3, so a 1 card advantage. That's the equivalent of Druid's Nourish or Mage's Arcane Intellect, yet these cards aren't OP by any stretch of the imagination, heck they're barely even used. 3 1/1 hounds aren't OP either, Arcane Intellect+Grizzly Bear for example is 2 cards for 5 mana which gives you a 3/3 with taunt and 2 cards, UTH+Buzzard is 2 cards for 4 mana which give you 3 1/1s without taunt and 3 cards. Nobody plays Grizzly Bears because they suck and not a lot of people play Arcane Intellect because it's not that good either, and the above combo is certainly nothing to write home about. Now, UTH is much more situational, as you need your opponent to actually have 3 minions on the board to pull this off, with 1/2 minions UTH is barely worth playing, and having 4+ minions require you to wait quite a while to pull off UTH and for your opponent to be completely oblivious to it.

So please explain to me why UTH+Buzzard is so OP. I've never actually seen an actual explanation from all you whiners as to why UTH+Buzzard is so OP, only whines claiming it's OP and that it's common knowledge that it's OP, never an actual reasoning behind these empty claims.

Buzzard isn't only thing it can be comboed with. Timber wolf, leeroy and hyena all work very well (although hyena isn't used that much.) Cheap cast card draws (tracking, flare) allow thinning out the deck and drawing into those combos which often results in playing UTH in 3 card combo. In addition hunter cards allow them to keep board clear when it's necessary and drop the bomb later, all those traps and removals are relatively cheap and effective.

The whole "hunter OP" thing boils down to more than just UTH, it's all the good synergies in hunter arsenal which allow their play style that makes them extremely strong.
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Posts: 362
[quote="123712937820"]The whole "hunter OP" thing boils down to more than just UTH, it's all the good synergies in hunter arsenal which allow their play style that makes them extremely strong.


The way it should be, IMO.
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Posts: 84
Okay, I understand people trying to play it slower, cause I've been there and I know how frustrating it is to que into an aggro deck after an aggro deck. The thing is that - well, if you're loosing than that's your problem. The sooner you understand that it is you and your deck that need adjustments, not the game, the better for you. Really, eitheradjust your deck against aggro or try out an aggro deck for yourself. Know your enemy. You will find that aggro involves far more strategy than you judge by playing against it. Playing aggro, your resources are limited, you race against time, against cards and you still have your own health to worry about. And consider that Hunter aggro isn't the only aggro/burst deck out there, so while mid-range decks are mostly hunters prey, there are other match-ups that are in no way as favorable and require a different approach using the same cards. For example versus Zoo Warlock aggro Hunter needs to be the control player and focuses on efficient removal. Yes, the game with the current cards is skewed towards aggro or legendary heavy control, but that's not because of 2 or 3 cards. It's because of the deck sizes, of the mulligan system, of the card variety and last but definitely not least of the fact that there's a lot less good defensive / late game cards in the card pool. Zoo Warlock is a perfect example of a deck that exploits not the OP-ness of some particular card, but the metagame that's resulting from the game design combined with the current card pool in general.
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Posts: 1,930
04/01/2014 10:38 AMPosted by idm
I gave perfectly good arguments in the other topic I think ;).

Not sure which thread you're referring to but all I remember from you are the usual "Huntards OP nerf UTH+Buzzard QQ", don't remember anything substantial from you in other threads so please correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]

They might just gain '1 card' in the situation you describe, but this is not the case at all. If you look at pure card advantage, then Buzzard + UtH can be a 2 for 5 or 2 for 6 for just 4 mana...


Sure, it can be, but the Hunter's opponent has control over how many cards the Hunter will draw, not the Hunter himself. That's the whole point, people like you just refuse to adjust your game play against Hunters to take UTH into account and play around it, in the same way you'd play around Blizzard/Flamestrike when playing against Mages, Hellfire/Shadowflame when playing against Handlocks, Lightning Storm when playing against Shamans, etc. The concept of not overextending is not unique to UTH, seeing that most classes have some form of AoE, the above are just examples, not the entire list of AoE spells obviously. The only difference is that when you overextend against 1 of those AoEs you "only" lose your board, against a Hunter you can lose the entire game. The thing you guys don't realize is that if a Hellfire, Flamestrike or whatever kills 5-6 of your minions(seeing that you mentioned Buzzard drawing 5 or 6 cards) than you probably lost that match as well, even if it takes the Mage a few more turns to actually secure the victory. So in essence the only difference is the proximity of defeat, not the defeat itself. Thus it's at best an illusion of grandeur regarding UTH(making it a lot more than it actually is), at worst a severe lack of TCG fundamentals.

Better yet. A good hunter player might even wait until turn 5/6 and drop wolf along with it, generating possibly even more card advantage and damage to the face. Yes this does take a three card combo, but with all the card draw the deck has and the cantrip/digger it will find the combo eventually (or at least one of the combos) more often than not. I think I saw the buzzard UtH combo being played in about 8/10 games. So it's consistent enough.


Again, the Hunter's opponent controls how big UTH is going to be, not the Hunter player. Moreover, in these examples you're basically treating UTH as the killing blow, which means that all the cards Buzzard draw were basically overkill as the Hunter would have won either way. So yes, in theory it's amazing, drawing a bunch of cards and getting a bunch of 2/2 beasts with charge, however 1 of these elements is usually not used to its full potential. So you can talk about card advantage and raw numbers all you want, these talks are just hanging in the air, you're using in game examples yet conveniently ignoring the context of your own examples. What happens in the vast majority of cases is 1 of 2 things. The first is that the Hunter either suicides the hounds on a big taunt minion, basically trading 3 cards(UTH, Buzzard and Timber Wolf) for 1 enemy taunt minion and 3 cards of your own(which is basically the equivalent of a Fireball+Arcane Intellect, 1 more card for 2 mana cheaper for the same effect), and I think we can both agree that Fireball+Arcane Intellect is extremely far from being OP. The second is that the Hunter uses his hounds to rush the opponent's face, in which case he has enough damage to end the game either on the board or in his hand, meaning that the cards he drew with Buzzard didn't help him at all as he would have still won even without them.

Again: probably the biggest problem with the combo is that it cannot be interacted with. Basically it reads:

4 mana: Boardwhipe, draw 3, gain a 2/1 minion with draw effect, discard a card.


How can you claim the combo can't be interacted with when UTH is reliant on your(the Hunter's opponent) board position? I think you need to revisit the definition of interaction... Also, see the previous section regarding your exaggeration.

I cannot believe people don't see how insane that is against other decks of the same budget.


I'm sorry but who is talking about budget decks? Nobody really cares about budget decks and the people who whine about UTH and Hunters whine about them in general, usually when they themselves play legendary heavy decks(so the opposite of budget decks) and still lose to Hunters. So considering that Hearthstone isn't balanced around budget decks this issue is completely irrelevant. But even than, other budget decks and even basic decks can beat Hunters without much trouble. I can easily construct budget Warlock and Rogue aggro decks that easily overrun Hunters. Trump and other pros took basic decks(so not even budget, pure basic) all the way to legendary, which means that they faced and beat a whole lot of aggro Hunters. So even the budget issue is simply false.

So yet again, your entire post still had a whole lot of mindless whining and extremely limited substance, and the little substance it did have was flat out wrong. So I still haven't heard a real argument from you as to why UTH, Buzzard or Hunters in general are so OP.
Edited by OwlRaider on 4/4/2014 8:09 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,930
04/01/2014 12:02 PMPosted by ShatBriks
04/01/2014 06:46 AMPosted by OwlRaider

So killing minions and dealing damage to the face is considered OP now? All decks do these things, that's how Hearthstone is being played... All this whining about Buzzard ignores the fact that the Buzzard+UTH combo already costs you 2 cards, so on the assumption that you get 3 hounds from it(which is pretty common for UTH) you've spent 2 cards to get 3, so a 1 card advantage. That's the equivalent of Druid's Nourish or Mage's Arcane Intellect, yet these cards aren't OP by any stretch of the imagination, heck they're barely even used. 3 1/1 hounds aren't OP either, Arcane Intellect+Grizzly Bear for example is 2 cards for 5 mana which gives you a 3/3 with taunt and 2 cards, UTH+Buzzard is 2 cards for 4 mana which give you 3 1/1s without taunt and 3 cards. Nobody plays Grizzly Bears because they suck and not a lot of people play Arcane Intellect because it's not that good either, and the above combo is certainly nothing to write home about. Now, UTH is much more situational, as you need your opponent to actually have 3 minions on the board to pull this off, with 1/2 minions UTH is barely worth playing, and having 4+ minions require you to wait quite a while to pull off UTH and for your opponent to be completely oblivious to it.

So please explain to me why UTH+Buzzard is so OP. I've never actually seen an actual explanation from all you whiners as to why UTH+Buzzard is so OP, only whines claiming it's OP and that it's common knowledge that it's OP, never an actual reasoning behind these empty claims.

Buzzard isn't only thing it can be comboed with. Timber wolf, leeroy and hyena all work very well (although hyena isn't used that much.) Cheap cast card draws (tracking, flare) allow thinning out the deck and drawing into those combos which often results in playing UTH in 3 card combo. In addition hunter cards allow them to keep board clear when it's necessary and drop the bomb later, all those traps and removals are relatively cheap and effective.

The whole "hunter OP" thing boils down to more than just UTH, it's all the good synergies in hunter arsenal which allow their play style that makes them extremely strong.


Thank you Sherlock for telling me what cards Hunters have available to them, as if I or anyone else here didn't know that already. Still, none of your post actually explains why Hunters are OP, all it says is that Hunters have a lot of synergy, and in fact are overly reliant on said synergy. Synergy in itself is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it just is. It's also neither overpowered nor underpowered, it's just there. Saying Hunters are OP because they have synergy is just dumb, and completely ignores the other side of the coin, that Hunter cards, especially beasts, are terribly weak individually, and that without this synergy Hunters just plain suck, like they used to be before UTH was buffed from costing 4 mana to 2.
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Posts: 68
04/04/2014 08:08 PMPosted by OwlRaider
04/01/2014 10:38 AMPosted by idm
I gave perfectly good arguments in the other topic I think ;).

Not sure which thread you're referring to but all I remember from you are the usual "Huntards OP nerf UTH+Buzzard QQ", don't remember anything substantial from you in other threads so please correct me if I'm wrong.


Stopped reading after this. This is the problem with you Hunter lovers. You take a couple of comments from newbies that can only say stuff like that and pretend like every person that has something bad to say about hunters does the same thing.

The fact that you completely ignore my arguments in other threads while even responding to them previously, makes me wonder why you are in this discussion at all. Seen that you are not willing to see other sides of the story other than "but in the top5 the deck suckz0rzzz so it's not OP0rzzz! QQ"...

I'll repeat two of my statements once more slowly so you might understand :).

- The budget to power ratio of the deck is too strong. It's better than any other deck of the same budget. The learning curve to play against the deck is too high. These two things make it so that new players and players that play very casually (ergo also play budget decks) have a hard time dealing with the deck. Some of them will switch to Hunter because of it, making the lower ranked meta very predictable.
- To fix this, either Buzzard or UtH should receive a nerf. I think Buzzard only triggering on playing beasts instead of triggering on summoning a beast, would help tons. Hunter should then also get a slight buff on another front to keep the class viable.
Edited by idm on 4/5/2014 7:14 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,930
04/04/2014 08:08 PMPosted by OwlRaider
...
Not sure which thread you're referring to but all I remember from you are the usual "Huntards OP nerf UTH+Buzzard QQ", don't remember anything substantial from you in other threads so please correct me if I'm wrong.


Stopped reading after this. This is the problem with you Hunter lovers. You take a couple of comments from newbies that can only say stuff like that and pretend like every person that has something bad to say about hunters does the same thing.

The fact that you completely ignore my arguments in other threads while even responding to them previously, makes me wonder why you are in this discussion at all. Seen that you are not willing to see other sides of the story other than "but in the top5 the deck suckz0rzzz so it's not OP0rzzz! QQ"...

I'll repeat two of my statements once more slowly so you might understand :).

- The budget to power ratio of the deck is too strong. It's better than any other deck of the same budget. The learning curve to play against the deck is too high. These two things make it so that new players and players that play very casually (ergo also play budget decks) have a hard time dealing with the deck. Some of them will switch to Hunter because of it, making the lower ranked meta very predictable.
- To fix this, either Buzzard or UtH should receive a nerf. I think Buzzard only triggering on playing beasts instead of triggering on summoning a beast, would help tons. Hunter should then also get a slight buff on another front to keep the class viable.


If you stopped reading after that than you didn't see my counter arguments and my replies to your awfully misspoken arguments, yet you say I've ignored them? o.0 I replied to you in the other threads too, countered each and every one of your arguments because you're simply mistaken, yet it's convenient to you to "stop reading" my arguments because you know I'm right and all your QQing is in vain. So instead you dismiss my posts and keep claiming I'm ignoring your wonderfully written arguments while I'm doing the exact opposite.

Ignorance is bliss, am I right?
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Posts: 142
You anti-aggro guys need to realise that if rush decks were nerfed then the only people able to get high ranked would have decks with 6-7 top tier Legendaries, some relevant Epics and playing unbeatable control. If aggro was not viable then Hearthstone would be truly P2W because free players would need to grind for months on end and play thousands of games to be at all relevant.

Stop playing trashy, inefficient and poorly designed decks and expect to beat tightly put together aggro decks which naturally have more consistent early draws.
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