I give up...

Posts: 454
...trying to post on the message boards.

First of all, someone bumped a UTH 1.0 post today to get more UTH attention. Pathetic QQ if I've ever seen one.

Second, I played nothing but Warlock Zoo for a week. 25 games. Not a lot but enough of a sample size.

I went 20-5. 6-3 vs. a friend's Hunter UTH deck.

The other 2 losses came to Druids who just controlled me into the ground and I had poor 2-6 turn draws.

Warlock Zoo is VERY consistent and doesn't rely on combos and wins just as much if not more than Hunter Aggro or Hunter UTH yet Hunter Aggro and Hunter UTH is what is pasted all over the boards as broken.

I'm sick of pointing out bad mechanics.
I'm sick of pointing out bad players.
I'm sick of pointing out over extenders who expect to win every game.

I give up. I may post occasionally on those wishing for advice or constructive conversation. But otherwise Hunters, see ya around.
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I'm there with you, how did they think this class was balanced? Hilarious.
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Posts: 267
Aggro Hunter beats Zoo though.
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Posts: 68
@ Kayas, it is because UtH Hunter is by far the best budget deck. Comparing your tuned out deck to that a new player with a budget deck that is as expensive as (even legendaryless) UtH Hunter, will get his !@# kicked. Bad.

That is the problem :).

Other than that I agree that this forum is pretty bad... So many flamers and hurtful comments, and so many duplicate topics. It's like there's no moderation team on here...
Edited by idm on 3/31/2014 5:25 PM PDT
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Posts: 454
My Warlock Zoo deck has all of 5 rares(2 Defenders of Argus, 2 Knife Juggler and 1 Doomguard) and the rest basic or uncommon. I don't even run Leeroy. I built it in all of 5 minutes. I bet it would cost around 800-1000 dust. I wouldn't call it highly tuned ;)

Zoo is so much stronger than Hunter Aggro imo because it runs 4 Taunts + DoA(which I drop mostly for the buff) and the hero power draws cards. UTH is a hard counter to Zoo. Just saying Zoo is fast and the taunts plus card draw are enough to sustain it through most UTH bombs. In the 9 matches vs my friend, he dropped a UTH combo all 9 games. FYI, he just started with release.

I get that UTH hunter is by far the best budget deck. Zoo takes a bit more understanding of CCG to play right. Hunter Aggro and Hunter UTH are not easy mode by far but they're about a 4 on a scale of 1-10 where I'd rate Zoo at a 6.
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Posts: 267
The general opinion afaik is that Zoo is the easiest deck to play in the game. Hunter can be harder depending on the list because you have actual decisions instead of just "play your entire hand, go face, tap for more cards". It would also explain why you're beating your friend so much, he just doesn't have enough experience with the deck.

I would advise watching Reynad's stream if you truly want to know what Hunter is capable of.

Disclamer: Hunter takes no skill if you're playing vs inexperienced players who don't know how to play vs hunter and run bad decks.
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Posts: 2,013
Warlocks have the highest win pecent by a sizeable margin, but I think people hate UTH more because warlock aggro you get counter play options like playing minions and using AOE when those minions are placed. UTH dumps a bunch of cards onto the board, one or two of which buff, one or two of which draw, and the rest have charge. Its just not fun to be told "Well don't play more then one minion"and sit there trying to out race a hunter who isn't restrained and whose token provides decent pressure in its own right. Hunters are very successful in their own right, but they are also frustrating, non interactive, and unfun to fight because their combo impossible to prevent unless you sit on your cards and let the hunter take the board with his other minions/cards and outrace you.
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Posts: 454
04/01/2014 05:03 AMPosted by Jagore
Hunters are very successful in their own right, but they are also frustrating, non interactive, and unfun to fight because their combo impossible to prevent unless you sit on your cards and let the hunter take the board with his other minions/cards and outrace you.


UTH is strong don't get me wrong. However, it's not "impossible" to beat as you say.

See, I fail to understand where the non-interactive part happens. If you say that you can create minions with Leeroy Jenkins and pull the combo off, well, now you're talking about a turn 9 or 10 combo in which case if it took you that long to win or be able to sustain 8-12 damage from a UTH combo then you were losing already.

UTH itself however MUST interact with the opposing side so by the definition of interactivity it's required. The choice to ignore opposing minions and deal direct damage is a choice. Sometimes it's not always a good one.

Lets take Zoo for example. I modified mine a little from all net decks but the concept is the same. My difference is I run 1 Yeti and a pair of Earthen Ring Farseers.

As an example from this weekend against Hunter UTH/Aggro. I dropped a turn 4 Yeti followed by a Turn 5 Defender of Argus. I had 4 minions out but a 5/6 Taunt yeti and a 4/2 Taunt Scarlet Crusader with Divine shield down. I healed my Yeti with an Earthen Ring Farseer on turn 6. Turn 7 when he's at 10 life, I'm at 18 life(only taken damage from my own hero power and one explosive trap so far btw) my opponent drops his combo. Buzzard, TW, UTH. He gets 4 2/1 minions. He kills both of my taunt minions, drops another UTH, goes to my face for 4. He draws 6 cards, gets a 2/1 and a 1/1 and is left with 2 more 2/1 hounds and 10 life. I'm at 14. No biggie. I drop my Doomguard I'm holding and take him down with my Farseer and 2/1 Argus which were left.

Choosing to go to the face ruined his chances of winning. That was his choice though. It doesn't make him non-interactive because he made a choice. It was just the wrong choice. He knows I've been holding a card. It could be Leeroy. It turned out to be a Doomguard. Either way the most he takes is 8. Then he can do 10 with what he has left plus the 6 cards he drew probably have a kill command or Bow or Arcane Shot or anything to take me down no problem.

Having Farseers plus a Yeti doesn't hurt my curve much. Argus is in the deck by default because it buffs.
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Posts: 267
04/01/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Kayas
If you say that you can create minions with Leeroy Jenkins and pull the combo off, well, now you're talking about a turn 9 or 10 combo in which case if it took you that long to win or be able to sustain 8-12 damage from a UTH combo then you were losing already.

That's the problem, Hunter is really good at slowing down the game by making you play around UTH and traps while constantly putting out damage. It should be noted, however, that you can by no means say the deck isn't interactive, since it's a game of your opponent playing around your cards and you playing around his playing around while also rushing him until your head hurts from the confusion. What that guy said about it being no fun still holds true though.

Also, Zoo with Farseers and Yeti? I don't really see why the deck would need that since if you play stuff like that on curve you'll just get stomped by decks that do the same but better. If you're playing Zoo just go with the rush.
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Posts: 18,087
Disclamer: [Any Class] takes no skill if you're playing vs inexperienced players who don't know how to play vs [Any Class] and run bad decks.

I fixed that for you.
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Posts: 454
04/01/2014 03:04 PMPosted by Pugnator
Also, Zoo with Farseers and Yeti? I don't really see why the deck would need that since if you play stuff like that on curve you'll just get stomped by decks that do the same but better. If you're playing Zoo just go with the rush.


The reason they're in there is because I lack a few of the cards in a typical Zoo net deck and I'm only replacing them with cards I feel fit the curve and are efficient. So I put in 2 Farseers and a yeti. It turns out that they're particularly efficient against other aggro.

The cards these replaced from typical Zoo are: 1x Flame Imp, Leeroy and 1x Doomguard.
I could make the Doomguard and Flame imp but I've been saving up for a Legendary instead. 320 dust to go.

I'm considering trying Faerie Dragons instead of the Farseer and an Argent Commander instead of the Yeti. I do like the 3 health on the Farseer though. Lives through an Explosive Trap. It may not seem like a key play but one game I healed my 3/1 Taunt Harvest Golem which had taken 3 damage back to a 3/4 and it lived till I won.
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Posts: 267
Oh ok, I guess they can work pretty well as replacements.

04/01/2014 07:05 PMPosted by Verdash
Disclamer: [Any Class] takes no skill if you're playing vs inexperienced players who don't know how to play vs [Any Class] and run bad decks.

Hunters more than others I'd say, since they punish mistakes so hard. But then again that's probably why I like the deck, I don't have to lose to bad players because they have a ton of legendaries and better luck with the draws.
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Posts: 361
Again with the people who think Warlock Zoo is a rush deck. You can't go for face while hiding behind taunts. It's all about midrange control, which, if you do it effectively enough, can overcome Hunters too. Sure, Zoo is a little more straightforward than say, a Reynad Hunter deck, but you have to be no less critical in your decision-making, especially at rank 10 or beyond. The only Warlock eck I've used that gives me trouble against hunters is when I run Murlocs. This is largely because Murlcocs SUCK individually (whereas the picks for Zoo don't), and require board presence in order to be effective. Often people talk about the turn 4, Buzzard + UTH combo, but that's rare to see (especially in single digit ranks), and wont even do that much to slow down a Warlock (or any other class). It's pure card draw and maybe a bit of removal. That said, as a Hunter, I only do that when I have NO other options. I generally chip away at threats and my opponents health, while amassing Leeroy + UTH + Timber Wolf. Generally if we're at turn 7 (or 6 with coin) and you have < 16 health left, I can end the game by that point.
Edited by psyonix on 4/2/2014 12:42 PM PDT
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Posts: 267
04/02/2014 12:41 PMPosted by psyonix
It's pure card draw and maybe a bit of removal.

Um... yeah, that's what it's supposed to do to begin with. Sure, you can use it to finish someone off, but that's just a bonus.

And Zoo is a rush deck, you just sometimes play it differently depending on the matchup.
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Posts: 361
04/02/2014 12:50 PMPosted by Pugnator
04/02/2014 12:41 PMPosted by psyonix
It's pure card draw and maybe a bit of removal.

Um... yeah, that's what it's supposed to do to begin with. Sure, you can use it to finish someone off, but that's just a bonus.

And Zoo is a rush deck, you just sometimes play it differently depending on the matchup.


I'm glad we're in a agreement on your first point, but as far as the second goes:

Maybe we're playing different Zoo variants (I'd love to see the decklist for the "rush" version). The one I use establishes board control by making favorable trades and clearing my opponent's side. I only attack face if it's the optimal play. Sure, you can get aggressive with it, but you wont get very far up the ladder if you play it the way you would say, a traditional rush deck. It's midrange control, simple as that.
Edited by psyonix on 4/2/2014 1:08 PM PDT
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Posts: 267
Are you really going to try and take it slow vs control decks? Maybe you just use a more midrange oriented list or something, but you can't really say Zoo just goes for favorable trades in ever matchup, regardless of rating. But yeah, Zoo is pretty good at the playstyle you mentioned too, it just depends. It also helps that Warlocks have the best power in the game.
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Posts: 361
Depends on the situation. the point I'm making, is that with all of four (not always playable) "fast damage" cards in a typical list, with usually nothing else that has charge, you're not really rushing the game.
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Posts: 454
I agree that Zoo isn't really a rush deck. It basically uses card advantage and efficiency. That's why yeti and Farseer work since they're both efficient.

Zoo grinds you down each round till you're out of gas. Then because Warlock keeps drawing cards they finish you off in time. I've rarely had a game when I play Zoo go longer than 7 or 8 turns though. It's typically so fast and efficient that nothing else can keep up. Not even UTH/Buzzard/TW combos can really come back against a good Zoo player.
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Posts: 267
04/03/2014 12:15 PMPosted by Kayas
It's typically so fast and efficient that nothing else can keep up.

That's why I consider it a rush deck. And there are also lists more oriented towards rush. But like I said, it depends on the matchups and stuff like that.
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