How can we balance Unleash the Hounds?

Posts: 147


...you have to keep your own minion count low. Hunter removal spells are very strong against low minion counts, so it is tough to be successfully aggressive using only 1-2 minions at a time.

.


This is a very valid point and does highlight why throttling your minion count can also come with high risk vs a hunter.

The Buzzard, wolves, UtH combos are cheap and multi-functional (single target removal, AoE, or hero removal to end the game). Very powerful combo.

What might keep a hunter somewhat honest is either minions with taunt or some other very high threat minion on the board. At least then, you have some control over where the damage is going to go. Think of it as you making the decision on when to bait the hunter to pop UtH.

What a lot of folks forget is that there is a big part of the game that is mental. Use that to your advantage.
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Posts: 32
I just don't see it as unbalanced. it just seems like a lack of understanding. we i think have all learnt you don't want a board full of 4 health and lower mobs out when a mage gets his seven mana crystal. we may have learned to love 4 damage creatures against priests, but most people haven't learnt to control the board vs hunters.
also remember this is the hunters draw mechanic and it uses a lot more cards and pre requisites than any other draw, you just need a lay on hands to get 3 cards and 8 health as a pally, a hunter needs a 2 card combo to get a couple of 1/1's and 2 cards.

it also has very good soft counters like fen creepers and mogushan warlords? (those 1/7 taunts) and hard counters like counterspell and snipe.
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Posts: 137
04/03/2014 11:44 AMPosted by Talima
I just don't see it as unbalanced. it just seems like a lack of understanding. we i think have all learnt you don't want a board full of 4 health and lower mobs out when a mage gets his seven mana crystal. we may have learned to love 4 damage creatures against priests, but most people haven't learnt to control the board vs hunters.
also remember this is the hunters draw mechanic and it uses a lot more cards and pre requisites than any other draw, you just need a lay on hands to get 3 cards and 8 health as a pally, a hunter needs a 2 card combo to get a couple of 1/1's and 2 cards.

it also has very good soft counters like fen creepers and mogushan warlords? (those 1/7 taunts) and hard counters like counterspell and snipe.


Yeah but mugus and fen creepers are awful. By the time you would play an overcosted fen you would be about dead.

A big problem with the current meta is how awful and overcosted the majority of taunt creatures are.
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Posts: 411
Hunter's have a lot of ways to destroy taunts:

1. Owl (silence)
2. Hunter's Mark + Arcane Shot (or a hound)
3. Explosive Shot (5 damage)
4. Weapon + Arcane Shot (5 damage)
5. Deadly Shot
6. Command Kill
...
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Posts: 2,651
Problem:
Unleash the Hounds draws X cards, where X is the number of creatures you control, if Starving Buzzard is in play.
Unleash the Hounds gets a +1 damage bonus IF you DRAW into Timber Wolf.
+2 if you draw into two timber wolves.
+Another X to both of those if you draw a second Unleash the Hounds
+Another X cards drawn if you draw into another Unleash the Hounds with your Unleash the Hounds.

Starving Buzzard synergizes well with every other Beast card -- including Animal Companion -- which is extremely good, in my experience.
Playing Staving Buzzard + Animal Companion is already card advantage without playing other cards, because Animal Companion is worth more than 1 card in most cases.

Starving Buzzard also draws 3 cards with Snake Trap -- if they attack any of your creatures.
For instance, Misha -- or even Starving Buzzard itself.
They are beasts, and can attack on your turn after the opponent's turn, without him being able to profitably destroy them unless he plans to spring that particular trap.

The hunter's 2 damage attacks stack up, fast, unless you're playing priest.
Nobody even talks about Gladiator's Longbow, which lets the hunter deal 7 damage in one turn, and 12 damage over two turns -- or destroy two minions, without taking any damage.

Then, we have the "random" kill spell.
It's not random.
It hits the only creature you have on the battlefield -- the only creature he left alive, because you were careful not to have three or more creatures in play, and he killed two of them -- leaving only the strongest, which is 'randomly' targeted by his Deadly Shot.

You need to have three creatures in play for Multishot to actually be random.
You don't have three creatures in play versus a hunter, so it hits both your creatures.

In fact, the hunter has an incredible removal suite:
Deadly shot -- Outright destroys your non-paladin non-shaman's only surviving minion after your attacks
Multishot -- 3+ damage to your opponent's only two creatures (It's a spell, remember?)
Kill Command -- 5 damage for 3 mana
Hunter's Mark -- Reduce a minion's health to 1.
Snipe -- Secret that deals 4+ damage to a summoned creature
Misdirection -- Secret that 2 for 1s your opponent
Explosive trap -- Secret that wipes the board and forces your opponent to play a useless creature the first turn after you play it, because it can be Snipe, and that forces your opponent to kill any Buzzard with spells, because it can be a "Draw 3 cards and put three 1/1 snakes into play" trap.

Then add in Eaglehorn Bow with those secrets, and he can deal 5 damage each turn to your face, or 7 if he played explosive trap, while clearing your board.

Impressive destruction spells.
The best class creatures in the game.
The best card draw in the game; draw cards when you PLAY creatures that are good even before the card draw.

I mean.
Scavenging Hyena is like Flesheating Ghoul on steroids.
Unleash the hounds makes it incredibly big, before it attacks.

Savannah Highmane is incredibly potent.
And guess what? The two hyeneas summoned are, of course, beasts -- allowing you to abuse Starving Buzzard before putting him on a suicide attack.
And if you put him on a suicide attack with Tundra Rhino in play, the Hyenas get Charge.
That's 9 damage in one turn from a 6 cost creature, plus potential card draw.

The entire class is combotastic.

The Tracking spell would be banned in Magic the Gathering.

...

By the gods.

I am only interested in playing:
1: Mage
2: Warlock (I wish it wasn't an orc... *Sigh*)
3: Paladin (I wish he was under 40)
4: Priest (I'll probably main him when they balance his spells better.)

And looking at the hunter's spells makes me envious, as a mage.
Flare.

Does the Hunter have ANY BAD SPELLS, like Mirror Image, Ice Lance, Ice Block, Ice Barrier, Arcane Missiles and Arcane Explosion -- or BAD CREATURES, like Mana Wyrm, Ethereal Arcanist, Sorcerer's Apprentice and Kirin Tor Mage -- all of which dies to absolutely any hunter spell unless, and ironically -- half of them rendered useless because of Flare, a hunter spell??

...

Should the Hunter class be locked for players that have over 100 wins, or something..?
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Posts: 1,518
04/03/2014 04:59 AMPosted by GoodKat
Hounds shouldn't be beasts. They're more like pets anyway.

Pretty sure a dog is still a beast even if it's tame.
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Posts: 666
Hunter's have a lot of ways to destroy taunts:

1. Owl (silence)
2. Hunter's Mark + Arcane Shot (or a hound)
3. Explosive Shot (5 damage)
4. Weapon + Arcane Shot (5 damage)
5. Deadly Shot
6. Command Kill
...


Nobody takes those abilities for Aggro Hunter. Owl is usually enough to get by a taunt, that or Kill Command.
Edited by Muto on 4/3/2014 1:49 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,486
Have the hounds auto-random attack the turn they're summoned, like Arcane Missiles.

And if any survive, then back to normal next turn.

Basically, a 2m cost arcane missile that can still synergize with all of the hunter's combo cards, much more synergy than the arcane missile can benefit from.
Edited by Symply13 on 4/3/2014 2:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 51
According to blizzard unleash the hound is supposed to help a hunter counter rush decks.

If that is the true intent of the card then make hounds only able to attack the opposing hero if there are no other viable targets to attack.

Its just a super rush card now here i draw 4 cards and hit you for 8 have fun killing all my hounds now.
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Posts: 6,990
04/03/2014 06:03 AMPosted by LordOfRandom
nets the Hunter three cards


They played 3 cards and got 3 cards back. That is by definition a 0 net gain.
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Posts: 2,569
04/03/2014 11:44 AMPosted by Talima
I just don't see it as unbalanced. it just seems like a lack of understanding. we i think have all learnt you don't want a board full of 4 health and lower mobs out when a mage gets his seven mana crystal.


Yeah but it costs 7 mana to just clear the board, end of turn. UTH combos cost anywhere from 4-8 mana and can either clear the board or hit the face, and often clearing the board leaves the Hunter with a buffed Hyena + extra cards. It's not comparable.
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Posts: 1,238
UTH is fine. Hunter's Mark needs a +1 Mana adjustment, Tracking should be a neutral card or other classes should have a version of Tracking, the card is !@#$ing ridiculous.
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Posts: 399
04/03/2014 11:44 AMPosted by Talima
I just don't see it as unbalanced. it just seems like a lack of understanding. we i think have all learnt you don't want a board full of 4 health and lower mobs out when a mage gets his seven mana crystal. we may have learned to love 4 damage creatures against priests, but most people haven't learnt to control the board vs hunters.
also remember this is the hunters draw mechanic and it uses a lot more cards and pre requisites than any other draw, you just need a lay on hands to get 3 cards and 8 health as a pally, a hunter needs a 2 card combo to get a couple of 1/1's and 2 cards.

it also has very good soft counters like fen creepers and mogushan warlords? (those 1/7 taunts) and hard counters like counterspell and snipe.


Problem is that playing one or two big a ss minions won't help either because Hunter is also super good against lone minions. See: Deadly Shot, Hunter's Mark, Kill Command for the Tazdingos etc
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Posts: 1,524
Hunters just have the best class synergy by far. If Blizz wants to go in that direction, the other classes need their own ways of maximizing the usefulness of their mechanics.
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Posts: 164
UtH seems fine on its own. It's UtH in a deck with Vulture that's the problem. Neither one seems crazy OP on their own (ma-aybe Vulture should cost 3? Iono), but they team up to form Voltron, and Voltron wrecks faces.

Imagine playing a Hunter who ran UtH but not Vulture. Would you care? Would it be a problem anymore? Not for me.
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Posts: 2,569
04/03/2014 07:08 PMPosted by LudusRex

Imagine playing a Hunter who ran UtH but not Vulture. Would you care? Would it be a problem anymore? Not for me.


The card draw isn't the sole problem. Substitute or compliment Buzzard with Hyena or Timber Wolf and UTH still achieves its purpose; punishes you for playing too many minions. Play too few and the rest of the Hunter deck still punishes you with the removals and damage spells. The problem is the fact Hunters can do so much for such little cost. It's everything being bundled together in a way that forces you to play inefficiently or risk getting ruined - only to take constant 2 damage hero ability shots in the face while struggling for control against things like Animal Companion and Explosive Trap.
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Posts: 260
Again, the solution is simple. Don't allow the hounds to attack the enemy character. This is supposed to be Hunter's board clear. Let it stay to the board.
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Posts: 4
Not allowing hounds to attack directly would be creating a new type of card text and a new game mechanic. Whilst it's a novel idea and pretty good I'll grant you, putting money on Blizzard implementing such a complicated solution would be fairly risky.
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Posts: 239
I won the last couple of games against the hunter cause I only played 2or 3 minions. I used to hate them but I'd rather face a hunter then a Mage ATM
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Posts: 260
04/03/2014 07:54 PMPosted by cry11
Not allowing hounds to attack directly would be creating a new type of card text and a new game mechanic. Whilst it's a novel idea and pretty good I'll grant you, putting money on Blizzard implementing such a complicated solution would be fairly risky.
There are already spells that can't attack the enemy hero, so I'm not sure how much they would need to tweak the mechanic. It's probably an option to tick somewhere.
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