Earth Elemental vs Hunters

Posts: 266
I noticed that a lot of popular Hunter builds don't use Deadly Shot. Earth Elemental seems to stop them dead in their tracks. I have to play around Misdirection, but other than that, it seems like a good counter.

There is also the threat of Hunter's Mark though.

Why isn't this card more popular given the Hunter heavy meta?
Edited by NinjaX on 4/11/2014 6:30 PM PDT
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Posts: 155
Hunters mark, frozen trap, black knight and kill command or they can simply trow hounds at it.

Plus, they have lots of way to deal indirect damage.

Definitely wont save you against hunter and is pretty garbage against anything else besides rush.
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Posts: 2
I've actually been experimenting a bit with Earth Elemental and find it okay in the current meta. It can be a pretty risky play though if you haven't baited out removals. Against Hunters, Freezing Trap and Black Knight are both possible counters; Zoo tends to run Black Knight as well. And of course, you'd have to watch out for BGH against most control decks too...

When it doesn't get instantly removed though, it really does a lot of work: racing against Hunters, getting a 2/3-for-1 versus aggro/midrange, etc. I'm just not sure if the risk is totally worth it. That said, I typically don't play him as a 5-drop as I'd rather put out a Fire Elemental the following turn in many cases. The overload doesn't matter as much later in the game.
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When played properly, it can stop hunters/zoolocks in their tracks. After a zoolock burns a soulfire is optimal timing versus them, but between Power Overwhelming and Soulfire, they actually don't survive long versus an aggro lock if they have one of the two in hand - but then, that's all that extra damage you didn't have to eat yourself, so whatever.

Using Argus on turn 4 tends to draw out a hunter's mark and something else (explosive trap, arcane shot, etc) - sometimes a silence instead, but I don't mind the silence. If one hasn't been played before, I don't play the EE yet.

I will play the EE if I have an earth shock in hand though and one arcane shot has already been played - hunter's mark + trap means I earth shock the EE back to a 7/7 now without taunt, and swing anyway, hunters don't like to swing their bow into the EE to finish it after a hunter's mark is used.

Also, just because you have an EE out doesn't mean you need to attack with it if you can't test if the trap is misdirection/freezing. :)

I would say the EE is not as useful in a control shaman as a burst shaman. He's a great target for windfury/rockbiters, but if he gets removed, then you still have your FEs having a better chance of surviving to be the target for the burst if needed - Leeroy offers no counterplay for the same 6 attack of a FE, so ignoring him being the obvious preferred target. But it really helps provide alternative ways to burst decks to get the combo off by having more removal bait.

In any case, he's like any other minion you want to use effectively - play around the counters, of course!
Edited by Ranilin on 4/11/2014 7:50 PM PDT
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Posts: 193
EE is too high risk. Your banking on the huntard to not have deadly, freezing, hunters mark, BK, owl, etc cause one you throw that thing down you're pretty much paralyzed for 2 turns.
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Posts: 155
04/12/2014 06:12 AMPosted by Vox
EE is too high risk. Your banking on the huntard to not have deadly, freezing, hunters mark, BK, owl, etc cause one you throw that thing down you're pretty much paralyzed for 2 turns.


Or they can just sit there and ping your face and kill command you to the ground with an explosive trap set up. You cant attack because you are afraid of a frozen trap.
Edited by Guedes on 4/12/2014 8:29 AM PDT
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Earth elemental + ancestral spirit = zoo warlock concede
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Posts: 266
Thanks for all your inputs.

I think it's a high variance type of card that can be severely punished vs Hunters, but I can see it being very useful vs Aggro Warlocks.

However, I think a Shaman deck without EE does fine vs Warlock anyways.
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Posts: 528
EE=
good vs rush
conditional vs control

Rush tend to have few things to counter it. Few have silence and many dont run deadly shot and hunters mark. EE because of the overload is a risk but you have to weight it for your deck and the meta. Control will surely have silence or high damage to deal with it.

This card has won me many games vs rush decks i keep it in. It has won me many vs hunter also. It is true that most of the time EE is best turn 7 not 5. If i have not lured much that game I prefer to play fire elemental that similarly they have to deal with and will probably not hold back much to do so. After they have killed it with x i do earth elemental and mop up the board with it. The key to EE is having significant threats played before it as lures. If you still think EE is trash think of it as a turn 5 giant + sunfury with 3 overload. From that point of view its pretty good. The card simply punishes rush decks that dont have good answers or cut many out and have to use many cards to deal with it. Iv had many rush decks surrender when I played EE.

Some on said that EE vs soul fire + minion + power overwhelming is too bad. Its not. That is 1 minion thats dead for them, 2 spells and they lose 1 card from hand which is like 4 cards for 1. That will set them back so much in cards you should be able to win if you are even on board almost regardless of whats in hands. Yes it is more optimal to play EE after soul fire or power overwhelming hits as it will have to eat more cards to die.

I played a rouge yesterday that was agro rush. They didnt have assassinate and only sap besides eviscerate for big removal. I played EE think turn 7. They saped. I played again. They had to use 3 cards to kill it. I then laughed as I played my 2nd one and they didnt run assassinate or high damage so they again had to use 3 cards to remove it. Being 5 cards ahead easily won me the game without it even pounding their face 1 time as it completely emptied their hand.

I have never seen black knight used against me 1 time. The number of times ive seen BGH used vs me i can count on 1 hand. Ive also never seen harrison jones played vs me. All im saying is the bark and fear is worse than the chances of actually seeing them.

Generally my EE if not instantly removed will eat 3 cards but its more like 2-4. When ever EE eats 2+ cards its a winner as they had to use probably lots of mp and several cards to get rid of a 5mp card. While next turn I can still do plays.

VS hunter:
If they dont have hunters mark + damage or deadly shot and you have no minions out or a few others as snipe + explosive shot they are in trouble. If I play turn 5 depends on if they have played much things that counter EE yet and board. If they have im more likely to play EE. If I already have a taunt besides stone claw out I wont play it. I will make them deal with the current taunt with lots of resources then play EE. If you can get a turn 3 feral spirits and control the board which isnt hard vs hunter then they say kill ferals turn 3-4 then you can easily play EE turn 5. They probably had to use 1-3 cards to remove ferals and with less cards in hand it safer to play EE. Play EE turn 5 and wish you could hear them pounding their head against the wall. Ive done this and had hunters (and other players) instant surrender because they just used most of what they would have used on EE on my ferals instead and now have very little in hand to deal with it. Also if you can lure with mana tide or unbound thats great also. Get some lures out and make them use what they could have saved for EE but didnt. I do like to have as other said earth shock to undo hunters mark if they cant kill it that turn. Also their are few hunter minions worth using earth shock on so using on EE is not a bad deal. Shaman vs hunter is still super hard but possible. Dont give up and dont auto surrender. Ferals + EE drains many cards from the opponent and can give you the win even if neither survive 1 turn just being ahead so many cards. A hunter with out cards is almost no threat. If you drain them of 3-6 cards for ferals and EE they probably cant recover. Im not seeing many hunters lately use arcane shot. If they want to use hunters mark + explosive or something else and burn 2 cards for my 1 fine ill still take that trade. Its not fun but still 2 for 1. I also would not play EE without a back up plan of what will I do next turn if this dies? Can I play a ferals, unbound, harvester or fire elemental for quick recover? If I can I could be less hesitant to use EE as the big lure for my other stuff but depends.
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04/12/2014 08:29 AMPosted by Guedes
04/12/2014 06:12 AMPosted by Vox
EE is too high risk. Your banking on the huntard to not have deadly, freezing, hunters mark, BK, owl, etc cause one you throw that thing down you're pretty much paralyzed for 2 turns.


Or they can just sit there and ping your face and kill command you to the ground with an explosive trap set up. You cant attack because you are afraid of a frozen trap.


This is a big reason why EE is just not worth 3 overload. You're committed too hard in a seriously risky direction.
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Posts: 1,238
04/15/2014 04:19 PMPosted by Dunsparrow
04/12/2014 08:29 AMPosted by Guedes
...

Or they can just sit there and ping your face and kill command you to the ground with an explosive trap set up. You cant attack because you are afraid of a frozen trap.


This is a big reason why EE is just not worth 3 overload. You're committed too hard in a seriously risky direction.


Obviously what Shaman needs is to run Stonetusk Boars for trap-checking.
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Posts: 1,158
04/15/2014 04:54 PMPosted by VSarius
...

This is a big reason why EE is just not worth 3 overload. You're committed too hard in a seriously risky direction.


Obviously what Shaman needs is to run Stonetusk Boars for trap-checking.


If I made a deck just for playing against hunter, I would definitely do this. If they leave Hunter unnerfed much longer I won't be fighting anyone else anyway.
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Posts: 528
I did build a deck specifically to counter hunter. Almost every card was with hunter in mind. I played it vs expert AI. I think i was winning 50-70% of the time. The AI is not very hard but shaman vs hunter is still so hard its not a walk in the park. I put in just about every think a 1/2 way normal shaman might put in that counters hunter and removed many things that dont help.

I put in:
Earth shock: kill weak stuff or disable taunt, high mane or hyena
Lighting bolt & rock bitter: kill weak stuff or hit face
Flame tongue: buff minions mid-late game, play almost no totems entire game
Storm ax: kill several minions and hit face
Ooze: kill bow from gaining uses and decent damage
Harvest golem: Hard to kill in 1 blow and keep trading
Unbound: Can get out of range of many hunter damage
Ferals: taunt wall to trade with most hunter stuff
Lava: kill most of their minions or hit face
Storm: clear several weak minions
Hex: disable high mane, taunt, hyena or big stuff
Azure: draw and SP and medium body
Earth elemental: trades well and pound them
Fire Elemental: trades well, pound them and probably kill on entry

This deck does about the same in live vs AI. AI has card most hunters dont run like both multi and explosive shot but they play stupid. As such its a fair comparison to real play. Even with a deck mostly tailored vs hunter it is still difficult. The point is shaman vs hunter is always hard and 1 of if not the hardest match up outside of priests. It will always be hard. If nothing else because shaman is punished for using their hero power with UTH. Its the only time I know that a hero power is specifically self punishing vs a specific class. As such its as though we have 0-1/2 a hero power vs hunter and thats like fighting with 1 hand tied behind your back. Throw in hunter punishing for what shaman do best which is swarm and buffing and we might as well be considered hog tied starting the match.

Dont think they are nerfing hunter but they are just not gaining much from the new cards. They will be left behind the other classes improving instead of getting nerfs. This next 30 cards if they follow the pattern of the other 5 will not only not help hunter but same look like they were made to combat hunter.
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