Nerf the ability to steal minions

Posts: 335
04/13/2014 11:09 AMPosted by HappyFeet
I wrote the response to this in another thread yesterday;

"On the subject of MC. I don't think it needs a nerf exactly, but a tweak might stop a lot of complaining (my own included). Maybe instead of just taking the minion the priest could take the card? So you steal rag and instead of a rag on your board you get one in your hand or deck, that way MC would become a 2 for 2 instead of a 2 for 1. (Right now you spend card/mana (1 move) once and remove a creature from the board while simultaneously getting a creature on your side (2 benefits) but if they change it like my suggestion you'd need to spend card/mana to remove and card/mana to replay it)."

Everything else you can recover from. Cabal shadowpriest's best target is probably a golemn which isn't all too bad, mind vision/thoughtsteal are more rng fun than reliable mechanics, shadow madness is akin to a multishot and all of them can easily be recovered from since they take place in the mid game.

But MC is the only one that MIGHT be an issue if you don't specifically play around it, which you should, just like you should play around flamestrike, pyro, consecrate, equality/wild pyro/consecrate, UTH, explosive shot and a million other things. On paper though MC can use a bit of a tweak and that's only because of the cost/benefit ratio.

Comparing it to flamestrike we can see that 1 card gives the mage board control but NOT the momentum since they need more mana to play anything of their own. MC though removes AND gives momentum in one card. The cost is very prohibitive but other similar costing spells, like pyroblast (again going back to mage) don't give as much of a benefit.

The only card that's similar is Deathwing since he removes the board and gives you a 12-12 all at the same time. But the penalty is so severe and the rarity of the card is so high that you rarely see anyone play it in serious decks. MC remains the only ability that shifts the momentum of the game by itself, even the UTH needs other cards to back it up.

Having said all that, I don't think an MC nerf is nearly as urgent as a mid game buff to priests. Their turn 2-5 is utter !@#$. I'm not saying give them much but something that could maybe make priests capable of more aggression. When was the last time you saw an aggro priest? Every other deck has an aggro version that could work but priest is pretty much stuck with the stupid inner fire combo which you stop seeing past rank 15 (because it's unreliable). Priest needs tweaking for sure.


You'd have to significantly reduce the cost of MC for your suggestion to work.
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Posts: 866


You'd have to significantly reduce the cost of MC for your suggestion to work.


Not necessarily. I go back to my mage comparison and Pyroblast. If used as removal pyro gives you half the effect of MC (The removal part without the board advantage gained) for the same cost. At 10 mana MC would still be a force to be reckoned with, specially considering creatures with battle cries e.g Alexstrasza.
Edited by HappyFeet on 4/13/2014 1:07 PM PDT
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Posts: 335
04/13/2014 01:02 PMPosted by HappyFeet


You'd have to significantly reduce the cost of MC for your suggestion to work.


Not necessarily. I go back to my mage comparison and Pyroblast. If used as removal pyro gives you half the effect of MC (The removal part without the board advantage gained) for the same cost. At 10 mana MC would still be a force to be reckoned with, specially considering creatures with battle cries e.g Alexstrasza.


It's nothing like pyroblast. PB is never used as removal, it's a finisher. It can wipe 1/3 of your opponents health. You'd just see more people running faceless and more removal cards. I then get the card the same turn for less mana without waiting a turn. Losing about 2 turns worth of mana and a card for 1 minion is not a trade anyone is going to take up. Plus, it would potentially render MC on giants worthless. Then there's cards like deathwing. Say I MC him and he goes back into my hand; I now have to deal with the negative play effects. There's already a pretty high risk to this card. It would just render it all but unplayable with that change.
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Posts: 866
04/13/2014 01:40 PMPosted by TheDude
It's nothing like pyroblast. PB is never used as removal, it's a finisher. It can wipe 1/3 of your opponents health. You'd just see more people running faceless and more removal cards. I then get the card the same turn for less mana without waiting a turn. Losing about 2 turns worth of mana and a card for 1 minion is not a trade anyone is going to take up. Plus, it would potentially render MC on giants worthless. Then there's cards like deathwing. Say I MC him and he goes back into my hand; I now have to deal with the negative play effects. There's already a pretty high risk to this card. It would just render it all but unplayable with that change.


I disagree with it not being like pyro. People may not use pyro as removal often but that doesn't mean it doesn't have that utility. If you're on sub 10 health with a giant on the board you'll have no choice but to use it as removal just like you need to use fireballs as removal quite often. The optimal use isn't always what ends up happening in games.

Also, if you MC a venture co merc right now you'll also see a negative effect, that just means you don't wanna MC the first big guy you see, same goes for Deathwing, if he gets on the board and you have cards you'd rather not lose, try and word death him instead. If no word death then try and regain the board using your card advantage and if that's not possible then your hand isn't all that good to begin with and re casting Deathwing would be the better choice. Besides, there are many more beneficial battlecries than negative ones.

But most importantly what I wanna address is the mana lost since that's the entire reason behind my suggestion. Losing about 2 turns worth of mana is what's happening to your opponent right now since he uses the mana for the creature, doesn't see the benefit from the creature (except battlecry), loses the creature and now has to spend mana tryng to remove it. Forcing the priest to choose between replaying the MCd creature or playing something else doesn't seem like a negative. Granted, it would be a nerf but not bad enough to stop people from playing MC since the element of hard removal is still in play.

The point I'm trying to make with the suggestion is that MC is more than just removal right now, it's a tempo swing like no other in the game. It bypasses its own mana restriction by being played on very expensive creatures, MC a Ysera and it's as if you hexed the opponent's Ysera, killed the frog, cast your own Ysera without losing the card from your deck and also got a card from her, all in the same turn. By forcing the priest to recast Ysera we still retain the hard removal AND maintain the priest's card advantage.
Edited by HappyFeet on 4/13/2014 2:29 PM PDT
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Posts: 335
04/13/2014 02:28 PMPosted by HappyFeet
04/13/2014 01:40 PMPosted by TheDude
It's nothing like pyroblast. PB is never used as removal, it's a finisher. It can wipe 1/3 of your opponents health. You'd just see more people running faceless and more removal cards. I then get the card the same turn for less mana without waiting a turn. Losing about 2 turns worth of mana and a card for 1 minion is not a trade anyone is going to take up. Plus, it would potentially render MC on giants worthless. Then there's cards like deathwing. Say I MC him and he goes back into my hand; I now have to deal with the negative play effects. There's already a pretty high risk to this card. It would just render it all but unplayable with that change.


I disagree with it not being like pyro. People may not use pyro as removal often but that doesn't mean it doesn't have that utility. If you're on sub 10 health with a giant on the board you'll have no choice but to use it as removal just like you need to use fireballs as removal quite often. The optimal use isn't always what ends up happening in games.

Also, if you MC a venture co merc right now you'll also see a negative effect, that just means you don't wanna MC the first big guy you see, same goes for Deathwing, if he gets on the board and you have cards you'd rather not lose, try and word death him instead. If no word death then try and regain the board using your card advantage and if that's not possible then your hand isn't all that good to begin with and re casting Deathwing would be the better choice. Besides, there are many more beneficial battlecries than negative ones.

But most importantly what I wanna address is the mana lost since that's the entire reason behind my suggestion. Losing about 2 turns worth of mana is what's happening to your opponent right now since he uses the mana for the creature, doesn't see the benefit from the creature (except battlecry), loses the creature and now has to spend mana tryng to remove it. Forcing the priest to choose between replaying the MCd creature or playing something else doesn't seem like a negative. Granted, it would be a nerf but not bad enough to stop people from playing MC since the element of hard removal is still in play.

The point I'm trying to make with the suggestion is that MC is more than just removal right now, it's a tempo swing like no other in the game. It bypasses its own mana restriction by being played on very expensive creatures, MC a Ysera and it's as if you hexed the opponent's Ysera, killed the frog, cast your own Ysera without losing the card from your deck and also got a card from her, all in the same turn. By forcing the priest to recast Ysera we still retain the hard removal AND maintain the priest's card advantage.


It's honestly a pretty poor tempo swing if you don't already have board control. Anybody playing against a priest around turn 10 should know better than to throw down a big card and not have a removal. Currently, if I MC someone's card, they can remove it 90% of the time with a card much cheaper than MC, thus giving them an overall mana advantage. It's a tempo swing that is identical to playing faceless and SW:D (Which is actually cheap enough that you can play a third buff card on turn 10.).

A 10 cost hard removal is crap, honestly. BGH and SW:D do it cheaper and can be combo'd with a faceless. It would honestly further discourage me from running the one MC I do currently, because those cards have more utility and aren't dead until turn 10 on their own.
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Posts: 271
MC is Faceless manipulator + hard removal. It's not OP. It doesn't need to be changed. If ANYTHING the cost needs to reduced back to 8 mana. If you can't play around it, you're never going to get above rank 15. Learn. To. Friggin'. Play.
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