Boulderfist vs Fire Elemental

Posts: 963
So here's something I've been pondering a little while.

Fire Elemental is widely regarded as THE best 6 drop minion. It has neat stats and 3 damage Battlecry, which usually leads to 2-for-1 trades. Awesome, on paper at least.

Here's something I haven't seen anyone mentioning: It has identical cost & stats to Lord of the Arena (6/5)... and LotA is widely regarded as a bad card. I get it, 5 Health isn't exactly great for 6 Mana Taunt (might as well use that 6 Mana cost 4/5 Divine Shield Taunt, right?), but neither is it for non-Taunts.
There's plenty of ways to deal 5 damage (Fireball and Arcanite Reaper just to name few), and there's even handful of 5 Mana minions can trade vs Fire Elemental.
Besides, 3 damage Battlecry usually isn't that great vs late game minions anyway, so it doesn't exactly swing the board control in your favor if you're losing.

Am I just not using Fire Elemental properly or is it tad overrated?

I've considered swapping to 1x Fire Elemental & 1x Boulderfist Ogre simply because BO tends to survive longer.

6/7 creature seems much trickier to deal with, trading 2 Health for Battlecry allows it to survive Fireball etc. common removals and it's just outside BGH's range. Toss Sunfury Protector/Defender of Argus next to it and you've got yourself a poor man's Earth Elemental.
It might get Assassinated or Polymorphed just the same as Fire Elemental, but on the other hand if your opponent doesn't have hard removal he'll be forced to use direct damage "and then some".

So which one you'd generally prefer, 2x Fire Elemental or 1x FE & 1x Boulderfist?
Edited by ÄmJii on 4/14/2014 8:30 AM PDT
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Posts: 10
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt,

Lighting bolt is a card, so fire elemental is worth 2 cards on its own.

With out the card draw on Azure Drake it would be worthless, even if it was 4/5 it would be crap.

Having card advantice is everything. And 3 damamge is a lot.

If i take out even a 2 cost 3/2 minion with my fire elemental and then the mage fireballs it, i am perfectly fine and happy with that trade.

He lost a 3/2 and a fireball, i lost 1 card.

And there is no generally , i woulnt put a boulderfist ogre in a constructed deck at all, ever.
Edited by SwiftXShadow on 4/14/2014 9:52 AM PDT
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Posts: 155
Question to the OP, which is better:

Drop a fire elemental and destroy a 3hp or less minion in the precess and than trade it for a fireball

or

Drop a boulderfist ogre and trade it for a polymorph.

Think about it.

Fire elemental is a great card. If you fail to see that, than im sorry, but you are probably a bad player.

Not that boulderfist is a bad card. Its one of the better stats neutral cards, but thats only it, a good stat minion. You cant have a fire elemental with good stats, he has not so bad stats because it need a slightly drawnback for his awesome ability (yes, 3 damage is a lot, a bolt like someone already said).
Edited by Guedes on 4/14/2014 9:54 AM PDT
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Posts: 677
04/14/2014 08:29 AMPosted by ÄmJii
Toss Sunfury Protector/Defender of Argus next to it and you've got yourself a poor man's Earth Elemental.


I am little worried about using argus on boulderfist ogre. It puts him into BGH range.
It's an amazing drop by all standards though. Being able to survive a fireball is already worth considering for your deck
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Posts: 959
3 damage is basically a two mana spell, therefore you're getting a four mana 6/5 which is pretty good if you ask me
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Posts: 397
Fire elemental is obviously better. That card is like trading 2 cards off your opponent for one of yours.
Edited by Kimuto on 4/15/2014 3:01 AM PDT
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Posts: 963
04/14/2014 09:44 AMPosted by SwiftXShadow
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt,

Lighting bolt is a card, so fire elemental is worth 2 cards on its own.


That's actually pretty good argument, I didn't really think of it that way.
But if you're forced to play Fire Elemental on empty board, you'll get very little value out of Battlecry (for example, spend 6 mana card to hit opponent in face for 3, then gets Fireballed). At least Lightning Bolt can be either SP'ed for extra damage or comboed with Unbound Elemental for similar cost.

And there is no generally , i woulnt put a boulderfist ogre in a constructed deck at all, ever.


Can you elaborate? I've been hearing it's a really solid 6 drop and going by stats it seems to one of (if not THE) trickiest minions to get rid of without hard removal:
it's a big threat that cannot be removed by Fireball, Big Game Hunter or The Black Knight (ie. nothing that'd normally work vs handlocks big minions)... or something slightly gimmicky as Flamestrike + Fireblast or SP minion on board.
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Posts: 528
Fire elemental 3 damage can win games and has for me. When the board is locked with taunts and what not. Or I have a minion/spell + 3 damage to kill a medium-big minion. That is an other use to weaken instead of 1 shot a player/minion. Its still a great minion. I take it every day over boulder fist. The effect is a free lightning bolt which is total of 2mp instead of taunt on lord of arena for 1mp. Its just more efficient. Its lures out most stuff also at 6/5.
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Posts: 15
OP- when you say that the fire ele doesnt help regain board control, I would have to say that I strongly disagree, the battlecry is HUGE! it can finish off annoying minions such as knife jugglers behind a wall of taunt, or simply soften up a big/annoying minion, a 3/5 shieldmasta suddenly becomes a 3/2, a much more palatable trade, especially if u can trade a flametongue buffed totem into it, nothing like trading your opponents minions for your free totems:)
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Posts: 959
04/15/2014 05:21 AMPosted by ÄmJii
04/14/2014 09:44 AMPosted by SwiftXShadow
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt,

Lighting bolt is a card, so fire elemental is worth 2 cards on its own.


That's actually pretty good argument, I didn't really think of it that way.
But if you're forced to play Fire Elemental on empty board, you'll get very little value out of Battlecry (for example, spend 6 mana card to hit opponent in face for 3, then gets Fireballed). At least Lightning Bolt can be either SP'ed for extra damage or comboed with Unbound Elemental for similar cost.

And there is no generally , i woulnt put a boulderfist ogre in a constructed deck at all, ever.


Can you elaborate? I've been hearing it's a really solid 6 drop and going by stats it seems to one of (if not THE) trickiest minions to get rid of without hard removal:
it's a big threat that cannot be removed by Fireball, Big Game Hunter or The Black Knight (ie. nothing that'd normally work vs handlocks big minions)... or something slightly gimmicky as Flamestrike + Fireblast or SP minion on board.


That's the unfortunate thing, but it's never a bad late game draw and depending on the class you're facign you can use the other cards in your hand or pass, also in late game it can seal your victory with the additional 3 damage.
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Posts: 528
It regains board control with the 3 bolt. It has done this many games for me. If they are agro im sure there is something I can kill or weaken for 3 damage and now they have a 6/5 to deal with. Vs mid range decks it still has a good chance to kill something with 3 damage. Vs late game control decks the 3 damage is not as amazing but still can as above us it as a combo to then kill a medium or big minion. Enough times turn 9 ive been able to combo fire elemental + lava burst for 8 damage to kill just about any big legend and It only cost me 1 card and 0 on board. Bye bye ragnar and I didnt even have to hex, trade minions or trade multiple damage spells. 1 for 1 still.

Boulder fist does have 2 more hp but... You are assuming it survives or is not bypassed with out taunt before it gets to act. I remember trying it early on. It generally absorbed 2-3 damage instead of 1-2 for fire elemental though fire elemental generally does take 2. Boulder generally died before I could use it. All it took was a fire ball + ping or a generic 4-5 damage spell + 1 weak minion. It traded ok but fire elemental is better because it has strong immediate on turn impact. That is why ragnaros is so strong in the meta because it always gets 1 shot off. Things with immediate impact on board are generally better than comparable things with slightly better stats that dont. Even if nothing on board the 3 damage + it attacking for 6 = 9 damage. That is 1/2 an attack ahead of boulder fist on turn without counter play. If both keep swinging at player with no boards boulder will always be 1/2 an attack behind fire elemental. Yes boulder can kill fire elemental and live but not likely. If boulder is out first then fire played to counter it the fire shoots boulder and still 1 for 1 trade. If fire played first then its only 1 more damage from say a searing totem to finish off the boulder. If boulder was 5/8 if would see tons more use as it would kill most minions and easily survive to do it 2-3 times.

Think of fire elemental as a late game minion + bolt and 2nd or 3rd bolt effect along with rock bitter. This card wins games. If not its a massive lure to bait out just about anything besides silence. Then your earth elemental is safe to play or your big legend as they probably just burned a 4-5 damage spell or buff to kill it or several minions helping you regain board control. If they trade 2 minions for it and it already mowed 1 down with the 3 damage bolt thats 3 minions for 1 and almost for sure giving you board control back or highly swinging it in your favor. Boulder may only get 2 minion trades but fire elemental can zap annoying small stuff behind taunts.
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Posts: 280
04/14/2014 08:29 AMPosted by ÄmJii
Besides, 3 damage Battlecry usually isn't that great vs late game minions anyway, so it doesn't exactly swing the board control in your favor if you're losing.
It kills that Defender of Argus that would kill your totem. It kills that Ancient of Lore that you hit for 2 with your weapon or flametongued totem. It kills that Azure Drake with the help of your 1/1 totem. It kills the Warlock behind his wall of giants.

A Boulderfist Ogre does nothing and then dies to Siphon Soul.
Edited by Stranded on 4/20/2014 5:40 AM PDT
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Posts: 707
04/14/2014 09:44 AMPosted by SwiftXShadow
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt,

Lighting bolt is a card, so fire elemental is worth 2 cards on its own.

With out the card draw on Azure Drake it would be worthless, even if it was 4/5 it would be crap.

Having card advantice is everything. And 3 damamge is a lot.

If i take out even a 2 cost 3/2 minion with my fire elemental and then the mage fireballs it, i am perfectly fine and happy with that trade.

He lost a 3/2 and a fireball, i lost 1 card.

And there is no generally , i woulnt put a boulderfist ogre in a constructed deck at all, ever.


04/14/2014 09:44 AMPosted by SwiftXShadow
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt,

Lighting bolt is a card, so fire elemental is worth 2 cards on its own.

With out the card draw on Azure Drake it would be worthless, even if it was 4/5 it would be crap.

Having card advantice is everything. And 3 damamge is a lot.

If i take out even a 2 cost 3/2 minion with my fire elemental and then the mage fireballs it, i am perfectly fine and happy with that trade.

He lost a 3/2 and a fireball, i lost 1 card.

And there is no generally , i woulnt put a boulderfist ogre in a constructed deck at all, ever.


3 damage is nothing when you have nothing on your side of the board to trade with it becomes worthless.

also fireball is enough to kill a fire elemental are you high?
Edited by Malice on 4/21/2014 3:35 PM PDT
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Posts: 528
The 3 damage is significant. Im not saying completely turn the match around but it helps. Its not hard to combo 3 damage with a lightning bolt, rock bitter, lava, storm, storm ax and many other things to help take down 4-8hp minions.

Yes fire elemental with 5hp is killable by some spells but its not many that do 5+ damage. Its a small er list compared to 4 damage spells and buffs. It is mostly just fire ball, lava, star fire, star fall, kill command and mortal strike. That is a very short list and not even 1 for every class and some of those are not used in every deck that can use them.

Truth is fire elemental is big enough to be a threat that must be dealt with, has immediate effect and takes enough damage to make it hard to remove for most decks with 1 card. Even if assassinated it still may have killed a minion with 3 hp and that is a 2 for 1 trade.
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Posts: 1,150
04/14/2014 09:44 AMPosted by SwiftXShadow
the fire elemental is basically a 6/5 and a free lighting bolt


This. Fire Elemental gets value even if it is immediately removed. End of thread.
Edited by Dunsparrow on 4/22/2014 10:50 AM PDT
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