New Rogue Card: Very Dangerous

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I want to point out that the response to the new Rogue card is fairly lackluster thus far. As a head's up for those who haven't seen it, it's a 4-cost 5/5 with a deathrattle to return a random friendly minion to your hand. I think like many cards, the true potential of these cards is often misunderstood (usually underestimated) until they're seen in action. But I want to point out a few things about this card:

1) In many situations where the players are in a tit-for-tat trade war, the deathrattle is simply ignored, since there's nothing to send to your hand anyway. In this case, it's simply a card that's strong for cost with no drawbacks. Comparing to Chillwind Yeti, it's slightly stronger for cost ignoring the deathrattle. Keep in mind that this doesn't still mean truly NO penalty, because it will induce a downside much like Soulfire / Doomguard, where while the penalty can be ignored, it limits when you can play it.

2) I think one of the strong things about this card is where it aligns stat-wise. It's not just good stats for cost, but it lines up to being in a good range of stats as well. It can kill Sen'jin Shieldmasta and Chilwind Yeti in a single attack without dying, which are 2 popular equally-costed cards. It kills Baine or Cairne with a single hit and still survive, which has interesting repurcussions; no other 4-drop or lower can do this, other than King Mukla.

3) It will be interesting to see how this interactions with Sylvanas. I'm not sure what the deathrattle order is, but it's possible you could use this card to trade with Sylvanas and send your own powerful minion back to your hand.

4) This card synnergizes incredibly well with SI-7 and potentially other good battlecry minions like Defender of Argus and Novice Engineer (in the current meta at least, in constructed, it would likely just be the SI-7 though).

So all in all, I don't know how strong this card will be, but I foresee interesting potential from it, and I don't think people should be so quick to write it off.
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I've heard kidnapper is a terrible card,too,which explains why one set me back and bought a rogue 3 turns

people just don't always appreciate things
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For what it's worth Sar, I completely agree with you on all points. I believe this card is going to be an automatic include in Tempo Rogue.
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What I think is funny is players attempting to judge a card's value before seeing all the cards that are coming, especially when trying to say a card is bad.
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Whichever creature is played first has its deathrattle triggered first. So if you play the rogue 5/5 before they played Sylvanas, yes you can prevent Sylvanas from staling your other minion.

In general, this card is very poorly templated since it is unclear if you have control over the bounce effect :/ I'm not sure why Hearthstone still struggles with templating cards.
Edited by QQueenBee on 5/14/2014 5:27 PM PDT
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Ancient Brewmaster has a disadvantage that you can build around. It lets you return what you want, when you want, and creates no ongoing liability once it has entered play. Ambusher provides a mere +1 toughness, and in return it returns a random minion instead of the one you want to return, and half the time will be triggered at your opponent's discretion instead of your own.

I would not take that trade.
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I agree. Played in a tempo rogue deck where most minions have a strong battlecry/combo ability, it will be quite bothersome. It's strong enough to be a threat that has to be dealt with as soon as possible, which means that if you play it with a card like SI:7 Agent on the field, your opponent either has to deal with the SI:7 before dealing with the Anub'ar Ambusher or kill immediately, allowing you to use to SI:7 combo again. And either way, it requires a great deal of resources for the enemy.
Edited by PennyPewPew on 5/14/2014 5:29 PM PDT
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05/14/2014 05:15 PMPosted by DruidFrog
I've heard kidnapper is a terrible card,too,which explains why one set me back and bought a rogue 3 turns


but you still won the game right?
Kidnapper only stalls and maybe pulls a win out of it's butt >5% of the time.
It's a BM card and when you see it played you know you're going to win
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Blizz has clarified it's random, but I agree that it should say it on the card to have consistency with cards like Brewmaster, Tinkmaster, etc
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I'll also point out that Ancient Brewmaster has much better synergy with Combo, since it always returns the minion to your hand on a turn when you have played a card, instead of doing so on your opponent's turn, or on a subsequent turn.
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05/14/2014 05:31 PMPosted by Merlin
Blizz has clarified it's random, but I agree that it should say it on the card to have consistency with cards like Brewmaster, Tinkmaster, etc


They can't do that on deathrattles. The game is designed so that during your opponents turn you do NOTHING, so cards that have the possibility of activating during your opponent's turn can't be targeted. That being said, I often like the randomness. People say that randomness reduces skill, but I find it often increases it. Yeah, when Mind Control Tech (probably in Arena) happens to steal the Onyxia and not one of the 6 whelps, that IS just a lucky win. However, more often than not, it's about controlling the RNG in a method that's statistically favorable to you, which is much easier than an action where you flat out choose what's most beneficial to you. It's like comparing the skill of use of Mad Bomber to that of Elven Archer; they each fill similar niches, but Mad Bomber requires much more skill to use effectively.
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05/14/2014 05:30 PMPosted by Merlin
05/14/2014 05:15 PMPosted by DruidFrog
I've heard kidnapper is a terrible card,too,which explains why one set me back and bought a rogue 3 turns


but you still won the game right?
Kidnapper only stalls and maybe pulls a win out of it's butt >5% of the time.
It's a BM card and when you see it played you know you're going to win


I won ya,after healing over 20 points and having my every move countered till after 10th turn,they actually stabilized and if they'd had a taunt then i'd have possibly lost (I killed them with a charge)

basically if they'd had the board that kidnapper let them build up when they used kidnapper i'd have lost,i couldn't keep anything on the field
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05/14/2014 05:15 PMPosted by DruidFrog
I've heard kidnapper is a terrible card,too,which explains why one set me back and bought a rogue 3 turns

people just don't always appreciate things


Kidnapper is a terrible card. That doesn't mean on occasion it isn't the right card to win a game. I've occasionally in Arena won games due to Kidnapper slowing down my opponent's tempo or removing a taunt, and if you play enough games, Angry Chicken will win you a game too. But that isn't the norm.

The problem with Kidnapper is different though. It's not that his removal ability is bad (some Rogues use Sap, for example), it's other things about him. Namely:

1) His stats are really weak for a 6-drop. Note that Ambusher is the exact opposite, being better than a powerhouse of stats like Chillwind Yeti.

2) Rogues tend to utilize cheap cards as they're well-designed to cycle cards quickly and they also need cheap cards to activate combos effectively. It's hard to fit expensive cards like 6-drops into the deck, and for the very limited space, there are much better 6-drops (such as Cairne or Sylvanas).

3) Kidnapper is a combo card that costs 6 mana. So not only is he pricy, but to use his effect, you have to combo him, which makes it even harder to use his ability.
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it's like doomguard, the discard 2 cards are supposed to be drawback. But people like to use it as the last card in hand. In that case, it became the most OP minion in the card.
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05/14/2014 05:36 PMPosted by Sar
05/14/2014 05:31 PMPosted by Merlin
Blizz has clarified it's random, but I agree that it should say it on the card to have consistency with cards like Brewmaster, Tinkmaster, etc

They can't do that on deathrattles.

You don't understand the suggestion. He's saying that the card should explicitly state that it is random, like Sylvanas Windrunner does, instead of its current, misleading wording.
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Combo cards are just too costly to start chainning in my opinion, not alot of good effects come from it either.
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05/14/2014 05:42 PMPosted by ForPortal
05/14/2014 05:36 PMPosted by Sar
...
They can't do that on deathrattles.

You don't understand the suggestion. He's saying that the card should explicitly state that it is random, like Sylvanas Windrunner does, instead of its current, misleading wording.


Oh, that? Agreed.
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05/14/2014 05:27 PMPosted by ForPortal
Ancient Brewmaster has a disadvantage that you can build around. It lets you return what you want, when you want, and creates no ongoing liability once it has entered play. Ambusher provides a mere +1 toughness, and in return it returns a random minion instead of the one you want to return, and half the time will be triggered at your opponent's discretion instead of your own.

I would not take that trade.

DR can be silenced away completely, if you wish. And it only triggers when the minion dies, rather than immediately, before the minion can even trade away.

They are slightly different, and the 4 -> 5 health mark is actually a very important gain.
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05/14/2014 05:27 PMPosted by QQueenBee
In general, this card is very poorly templated since it is unclear if you have control over the bounce effect :


Pretty sure it will be random, seeing as every single Deathrattle to date has been random.
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05/14/2014 05:45 PMPosted by Bosskiller
05/14/2014 05:27 PMPosted by QQueenBee
In general, this card is very poorly templated since it is unclear if you have control over the bounce effect :


Pretty sure it will be random, seeing as every single Deathrattle to date has been random.


That is confirmed on the twitters
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