How is zoolock acceptable?

Posts: 1,472
05/16/2014 03:10 AMPosted by Yagami
Zoo is a legit and interesting playstyle that offers variety in the game. And as bosskiller said, aggro keeps control decks from going into endgame-only mode against other control forever.
But for me soulfire and doomguard are just infuriating. They win or lose the game for zoo and it does kinda feel like an elaborate dice roll - will they have them on time or not. It's not the mindless spam that's a problem. Every class can mindless spam and having replenishable resources is a cool twist on it.
I'd just rather the discard cards get nerfed and something else is given to compensate, even the old blood imp if needed.


I've already proven your statement wrong about soulfire/doomguard being the winning factors in agrolock.

I have made a copy of my deck and replaced soulfire and doomguard with more rush type cards and i win just as easily.

It was the same thing with unleash the hounds/buzzard.

I made a rush hunter that excluded those cards and it won just as much as easy.

You are acting very weak about this.
Edited by Zoids62 on 5/16/2014 3:18 AM PDT
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Posts: 638
Doomguard is not balanced aroud getting a 9 mana card for 5 mana.

Soulfire is not balanced around getting a free shadowbolt.

They are not designed with the idea of being free of discard, they are balanced around the discard downside.

Doomguard with discard is exactly on budget (2 discards)

Soulfire is 1 over budget compared to shadowbolt, but it can hit face and is amazing for tempo.

So thats my arguement as to why it is abusive using these cards without the discard.

Its the same thing with innervate, innervate gives you HUGE tempo at the loss of cards, you need to lose a resource to gain that tempo.

Its the same reason why people complain and rightfully so about auctioneer and zero cost spells / conceal, the tempo gain (becasue tempo comes in the form of cards aswell) is completely absurd.
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05/16/2014 03:32 AMPosted by AjayxD

Its the same thing with innervate, innervate gives you HUGE tempo at the loss of cards, you need to lose a resource to gain that tempo.


What do you mean by this part?
Edited by Cthulhu on 5/16/2014 3:38 AM PDT
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Posts: 27
Zoolock is the easiest and cheapest deck to play with an op win ratio. And the amount of skill playing soulfires and doomguards, that´s just amazing!

Nerf retardlocks hero power to draw a card at the end of the turn and fix the class!
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05/16/2014 03:32 AMPosted by AjayxD
Doomguard is not balanced aroud getting a 9 mana card for 5 mana.

Soulfire is not balanced around getting a free shadowbolt.


They are balanced, with the drawbacks in mind. Same as Defender of Argus, only in reverse. DoA by himself is weak compared to being dropped between 2 minions.

You are also not getting a 9 mana card for 5 mana. When played from a hand that forces you to discard, you pay 2 mana and 2 life per card to replace the discarded cards.

So if you discard 2 cards. That equals 9 mana and 4 life.
If you discard 1 card, it equals 7 mana and 2 life.
These are in addition to whatever card you lost.

If you work around the discard, you are losing tempo.

This is why the discard effect is not broken.
Edited by Bosskiller on 5/16/2014 3:42 AM PDT
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Posts: 174
05/16/2014 03:32 AMPosted by AjayxD
Doomguard is not balanced aroud getting a 9 mana card for 5 mana.

Soulfire is not balanced around getting a free shadowbolt.

They are not designed with the idea of being free of discard, they are balanced around the discard downside.

Doomguard with discard is exactly on budget (2 discards)

Soulfire is 1 over budget compared to shadowbolt, but it can hit face and is amazing for tempo.

So thats my arguement as to why it is abusive using these cards without the discard.

Its the same thing with innervate, innervate gives you HUGE tempo at the loss of cards, you need to lose a resource to gain that tempo.

Its the same reason why people complain and rightfully so about auctioneer and zero cost spells / conceal, the tempo gain (becasue tempo comes in the form of cards aswell) is completely absurd.


Amazing post.
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05/16/2014 03:39 AMPosted by McLovin
Zoolock is the easiest and cheapest deck to play with an op win ratio. And the amount of skill playing soulfires and doomguards, that´s just amazing!

Nerf retardlocks hero power to draw a card at the end of the turn and fix the class!


Lol you types of people.

I bet you make the exact same argument about hunters... amirite?

Start learning how to play against these "impossible to beat" decks.

"OMG I LOST TO A DECKTYPE! IF IT BEAT ME SO EASY IT SHOULD BE NERFED!!! NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESTROY MY AWESOME DECKS THAT I REFUSE TO CHANGE!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!!!!!"

Your type people make me laugh uncontrollably.
Edited by Zoids62 on 5/16/2014 3:47 AM PDT
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If you play decks that can take back board control in the first 5 turns, like tempo rogue, then Zoo really isn't that scary. In fact when I'm playing Zoo I have to draw terribly to loose with tempo rogue.
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05/16/2014 03:17 AMPosted by Zoids62
I've already proven your statement wrong about soulfire/doomguard being the winning factors in agrolock.

I have made a copy of my deck and replaced soulfire and doomguard with more rush type cards and i win just as easily.

It was the same thing with unleash the hounds/buzzard.

I made a rush hunter that excluded those cards and it won just as much as easy.

You are acting very weak about this.
I don't believe you for a second. Some proof would be nice though. At the very least a decklist.

05/16/2014 03:46 AMPosted by Zoids62
"OMG I LOST TO A DECKTYPE! IF IT BEAT ME SO EASY IT SHOULD BE NERFED!!! NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESTROY MY AWESOME DECKS THAT I REFUSE TO CHANGE!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!!!!!"

You can stop with the "change" thing. I've asked countless times what to change to overcome doomguard and soulfire. Still no answer.
The fact that you don't understand these cards have no real interaction with the opponent makes it dubious you are really knowledgeable about the deck. They just happen. You don't counter soulfire and you can't counter doomguard. What's the counter to soulfire? Play a creature with more than 4hp the first two turns? Don't play a creature against zoo? Scarlet crusader? Harvest golems in every deck ever? Because that is the best "counter".
Edited by Yagami on 5/16/2014 4:01 AM PDT
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05/16/2014 03:38 AMPosted by Cthulhu
05/16/2014 03:32 AMPosted by AjayxD

Its the same thing with innervate, innervate gives you HUGE tempo at the loss of cards, you need to lose a resource to gain that tempo.


What do you mean by this part?


Innervate allows you to play ahead of your mana curve at the cost of it costing a card to do so.

Doomguard and soulfire do the exact same thing except when they dont discard it does not cost you the extra resource.

Innervate is commonly complained about because it is extremely powerful to play ahead of your mana curve.

Boss there is so much wrong with that response, here we go . .

First of all you cannot compare DoA to anything, its comparable to senjn, if you get the buff on 1 minion its the same as senjin but the taunt is smaller, if you get it on 2 its better than a senjin.

How do you work out that to cast a doomguard with 2 card discards it costs you 2 hero powers and 2 cards to play it. It costs you 2 cards + doomguard (which is on budget) if you hero power to get the cards to use the doomguard then its your own fault for spending your cards beforehand (assuming discard requirements had to be met to use the card).

'If you are working around the discard, you are losing tempo'

Sorry i cant make sense of that.
Edited by AjayxD on 5/16/2014 3:56 AM PDT
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05/16/2014 03:54 AMPosted by AjayxD
Sorry i cant make sense of that.


It is pretty clear, and spelled out for you.

The discarded cards cost 2 mana and 2 life per card to replace. Pretty simple concept.

05/16/2014 03:54 AMPosted by AjayxD
'If you are working around the discard, you are losing tempo'


If this is the part you are having trouble with, it means if you are holding Doomguard back in order to empty your hand, you are giving up tempo, by not playing what is a strong component of the deck. If you go ahead and play him, you are then paying the above costs.

Try playing the deck at higher ranks yourself, and you will see what I mean.
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Posts: 27
05/16/2014 03:46 AMPosted by Zoids62
Lol you types of people.

I bet you make the exact same argument about hunters... amirite?

Start learning how to play against these "impossible to beat" decks.

"OMG I LOST TO A DECKTYPE! IF IT BEAT ME SO EASY IT SHOULD BE NERFED!!! NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESTROY MY AWESOME DECKS THAT I REFUSE TO CHANGE!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!!!!!"

Your type people make me laugh uncontrollably


No, retardlock player, I main hunter and it was considered the natural counter to zoolocks (uth 2 mana), still, it was a 50-50 match. Now with the nerf hunters can´t beat zoolocks even with explosive traps.

Your type of people that often says "learn to play" that makes me laugh! You are usually between rank 12-16 still facing no brain players that you counter with a basic AI deck. Good luck with you retardlock, cause nerfhammer gonna happen.
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Posts: 638
I have played it, i know the ins and outs of it.

I also know why its OP to not obey discard, how can you say it costs you 2 mana and 2 life per card to replace, that has absolutely no bearing on anything.

To cast the doomguard should cost 9 mana, it has 9 mana worth of stats, discarded cards are worth 2 mana, 5+2+2 = 9. This is why it is balanced with the discard.

Just because you you life tap to regain cards has absolutely nothing to do with casting the doomguard, if i play 2 cards and it gets wiped by aoe it costs me 2 mana and 2 hp per card to replace, what does that have to do with summoning a doomguard.

You arent paying above the costs for anything if you summon it with 2 discards thats where your so wrong.

God i hate zoo players, seriously it has to be the most clueless crowd playing this game.

And i get legend every season i know this game better than most, so playing at high ranks isint the issue.

What rank did you finish last season btw?
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Posts: 9,650
05/16/2014 04:09 AMPosted by AjayxD
I also know why its OP to not obey discard, how can you say it costs you 2 mana and 2 life per card to replace, that has absolutely no bearing on anything.


Yes, it actually does. Ditch 2 cards from your hand the next time you cast a minion, and then tell me the lost cards have no bearing. In order to gain back the 2 cards, you do so at the cost of life and mana. That is why the cards are designed the way they are.
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Posts: 1,472
05/16/2014 03:52 AMPosted by Yagami
05/16/2014 03:17 AMPosted by Zoids62
I've already proven your statement wrong about soulfire/doomguard being the winning factors in agrolock.

I have made a copy of my deck and replaced soulfire and doomguard with more rush type cards and i win just as easily.

It was the same thing with unleash the hounds/buzzard.

I made a rush hunter that excluded those cards and it won just as much as easy.

You are acting very weak about this.
I don't believe you for a second. Some proof would be nice though. At the very least a decklist.

05/16/2014 03:46 AMPosted by Zoids62
"OMG I LOST TO A DECKTYPE! IF IT BEAT ME SO EASY IT SHOULD BE NERFED!!! NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DESTROY MY AWESOME DECKS THAT I REFUSE TO CHANGE!!!!!! NO ONE!!!!!!!!"

You can stop with the "change" thing. I've asked countless times what to change to overcome doomguard and soulfire. Still no answer.
The fact that you don't understand these cards have no real interaction with the opponent makes it dubious you are really knowledgeable about the deck. They just happen. You don't counter soulfire and you can't counter doomguard. What's the counter to soulfire? Play a creature with more than 4hp the first two turns? Don't play a creature against zoo? Scarlet crusader? Harvest golems in every deck ever? Because that is the best "counter".


The reason no one is giving you an answer about what to change is because they don't want to.
You are an annoying poster and you are very disagreeable when people offer you proof.
You seem to have completely forgotten the last large Agrolock thread we were involved in.
Irregardless of this fact, it doesn't matter to me what you "believe". I know what I know. I know how it works. I have played A LOT, and I don't really need to explain or prove myself to the likes of you.

People like you will never get any better at Hearthstone.

In short: I'm tired of your a.s.s
But i the interest of making you feel terrible, I will copy my hunter and my agrolock and remove the cards that SCARE THE ABSOLUTE S.H.I.T OUT OF YOU. LET'S PLAY?!?
Edited by Zoids62 on 5/16/2014 4:17 AM PDT
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Posts: 9,650
05/16/2014 04:09 AMPosted by AjayxD
God i hate zoo players, seriously it has to be the most clueless crowd playing this game.


Yes, everyone, including Blizzard is clueless, and you are the only one that knows anything. Blizzard has even stated why the cards are the way they are, but since you want to devolve into nothing more than arguing against a class you despise, further discussion is pointless.
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Posts: 638
You arent even discussing, you are completely wrong in your justification of why its balanced.

Where do they say that its balanced to cast doomguard with no discard because to cast it with 2 discard it costs you

And wait for this because this is your logic

Drum roll . . .

5 mana, 2 cards, 4 hp, 4 mana.
Edited by AjayxD on 5/16/2014 4:26 AM PDT
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Posts: 2,730
You shouldnt be able to draw cards after you use doomguard/soulfire with empty hand. A cards, which are supposed to make your hand smaller, are not only played without the drawback but the warlock will have 3 cards to choose from on his next turn. Pretty ridiculous.
Edited by Bustar on 5/16/2014 4:30 AM PDT
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Posts: 845
05/16/2014 04:13 AMPosted by Zoids62
The reason no one is giving you an answer about what to change is because they don't want to.
You are an annoying poster and you are very disagreeable when people offer you proof.
No, you see, you still don't offer proof or any answer. I cannot be disagreeable with proof that is not there.

05/16/2014 04:13 AMPosted by Zoids62
But i the interest of making you feel terrible, I will copy my hunter and my agrolock and remove the cards that SCARE THE ABSOLUTE S.H.I.T OUT OF YOU. LET'S PLAY?!?
Sure. I'd like to see how those decks work. Are there personal messages here as to not get off topic?
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Posts: 174
Doomguard should draw a card, then force you to discard two cards.
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