Rogue Rocket Science and The Meta

Posts: 20
There is alot of crying going on about Miracle Rogues and how they should be nerfed and how can I beat them. There is also alot of questions about how to deal with Zoo type decks as a rogue. Im going to clear all of this up so we dont have 30 more posts about this garbage.

First as far as nerfing Miracle rogues I disagree completely with that junction. The problem isnt in the cards, the problem is to many people get on this game after they have went on google or a twitch stream and watched some high level player beat face with random dot deck and expect to do the same thing without any research or practice with or against the deck. If you want to move up the ranks and be a better player id advise you take the time to go through the cards and experiment on your own in casual mode until you have figured out a game plan or a deck to fight against miracle rogue decks or the top deck at the time.

Now for the miracle rogue players such as myself. If your having problems with Zoo type decks you simply have to do what I said in the paragraph above and stop copying the decklist some legendary player won with a week ago. For example right now I do not play Blade Furry in my miracle rogue deck or the 3/3 guy that gives you +3 life (cant remember his name) I replaced them both with Kobold Geomancer. Kobold Geomancer with Mainly Fan of Knives but any spell that does damage will win you 90% of your Zoo matchups. The key to beating zoo is to keep there board clear from the start, the first 3 turns are the most important. So learn to mulligan when against a zoo player. Mulligans are by far one of the most important parts of the game.

Now to beat the miracle rogue leeroy shenanigans. High level players already know this and do it very well. "TAUNT" my god a simple mechanic called taunt is the miracle rogue hate all day. People still argue its not because they got double sapped...sometimes you just have all the answers to win a game and thats part of any game ever made so learn to understand it. Ive been brickwalled and stop dead in my tracks because the person playing against me knew how and when to use TAUNT against me.

All in all this goes back to doing your own research and play testing and less whining and criticism. The answers are always right under your noses, you just have to look adnd adapt. Nerfs are not the answer for your inability to act and think like a top tier player.

Also everyone is wondering who the hell am I to put all this out there like im some Hearthstone pro. So ill tell you I got the beta invite when the game came out and since I play alot of Magic the Gathering which im very decent at, I dismissed this game as a poor wannabe ripoff of it. A friend of mine always taunted me about how he would smash me in this game. So 2 days ago I bought 80 packs because I work and can. I built the miracle rogue stock list off the internet and went right into casual mode al day the first day switching cards in and out and then once I settled on my list I played for 4 hours on day 2 which is today. Went from rank 25 to 14 losing a game to my misplays every 4-5 games 99% of the time. This game is very easy to me because of the 10+ years of magic the gathering ive played. So keep looking for new ways to break the meta game and conduct lots of practice. Ill see you guys in legendary ranks real soon! Thanks for reading!

If you want to learn a ton more im always willing to talk one on one, just let me know. I have way more to add to this but for now this is it!
Edited by Jobber on 5/15/2014 10:43 PM PDT
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Posts: 242
I appreciate the post here, to be honest, as a new player who read up on all the classes...apparently every class has people crying to nerf something. All I can conclude is people just want their favorite deck to be best and a 100% win rate. Getting upset at people being bitter isn't gonna do much. I kinda hope blizzard doesn't take these "suggestions" to heart. it seems to me that "everything is broken" and if thats the case...doesn't that actually mean everything is balanced? its not like anything has a 100% win rate. Me personally? I lose a lot to mages. I don't think anything needs to be nerfed, I think I just need more practice. I found I do better with tempo rogue vs mage then miracle or aggro rogue. I think the people that do best are the ones that have a favorite class and play it 2-3 different ways vs whatever they are having trouble with. I have three rogue decks atm. when I run into 2-3 mages, I go for my tempo rogue. If I am going into hunter and paladin, I go for murloc rogue. if I go into druid...well I suck. I can't win them all.

I think people need to realize that every deck has something to offer. there are some really ridiculous combos out there. It's fun. Rather than crying nerf or even getting mad at everyone for crying nerf, cus some people probably do it just to be obnoxious, I think its better to appreciate all the variety out there. I've never had a deck 100% win or 100% lose. If you find yourself in a funk, maybe just try another strategy you are compatible with. It seems to me every class has at least 3 ways to play it. Except shaman. that seems to have like two.
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Posts: 20
You hit the nail on the head Sorreah. I play rogue non stop because I enjoy the tools the rogue has to offer. Im a strict miracle rogue player at the moment but thats because I want to hit Legendary as fast as possible. Heres my list at the moment but its always changing due to what I see alot of at my current rank.

2 Backstab
2 Preperation
2 Shadowstep
2 Cold Blood
2 Conceal
2 Deadly Poison
2 Eviscerate
2 Sap
2 Shiv
2 Kobold Geomancer
2 Fan of Knives
2 Coldlight Oracle
2 SI:7 Agent
1 Leeroy Jenkins
2 Gadgetzan Auctioneer
1 Argent Commander

First off im always swapping the argent commander out for a black knight because I run into alot of decks using taunt like handlock and druid. Argent commander is also just another leeroy in a sense and ive found it very useful.
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Posts: 242
Yeah ^.^ I love rogue, I want golden rogue, so I go for 5 wins a day~ sometimes that takes like 12 something games, I am not a great player, but all the combos I learned and all the fun play, its so fun! I think the thing that would make me most sad is if they do change preparation. I really have no idea what would make fan of knives or blade fury viable (seriously, how are people upset about blade fury? its like the only decent aoe we have unless we can gun down a huge amount of RTH that some reason hit the face instead of clearing the board)

I like your deck ^.^ Honestly, I'm no good with miracle rogue. I'm too impatient for a deck like it (I really can't seem to sit still and take being 15+ health down, I start wasting resources I shouldn't) that said, there is a skill in it. If it was truly skilless, then someone like me could play it, which I can't. Every class has cool stuff.

Heck, I wasn't even mad, I was impressed, two days ago this paladin Wrath (something 5 cost, draw a card, deal cost damage to the hero) a molten giant on me. auto loss. I couldn't stop laughing. his deck was literally built around that kinda stuff. How can you be mad at stuff like that? leroy is derpy too, yeah if you lose to it a lot, then I can see it losing the novelty, but that also means you can play around it when you see it coming. I often win rogue matchups that are miracle, mainly cus I know what they are doing and play around it faster
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Posts: 20
Im going for golden rogue at the moment. Preparation isnt even the card that needs to be nerfed, if they nerf preparation then the deck will still be good because the Gadgetzan Auctioneer is what makes the deck run.

I have won countless amounts of games without even drawing preparation because its not what holds the deck together or makes it run. I mean its nice to play spells for free dont get me wrong, but you dont have all those spells without the auctioneer. If they nerf a card it needs to be auctioneer which isnt even a rogue card!

If you want help with miracle rogue you can add me as a friend and I will teach you. I climbed from rank 25 to 14 with the deck I posted in around 4 hours and stopping because I had to go to work.
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Posts: 242
thats what I meant Q_Q for me, who doesn't play miracle, losing preparation hurts me in general who uses it for combo making and making things like ambush and blade fury live. I think the main thing people need is better taunt management, all classes have them available and its good defense regardless of what you play against. There is no reason to make an entire class suffer
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Posts: 20
Sometimes cards just come together that are not even meant to be good cards. Rogue cards are made to mimic the style that a rogue actually is in WoW just like all the other classes. The fact that theres 1 card being the auctioneer that synergizes very well with them and somone found it doesnt justify and nerf of rogue cards. If we were going to do that then id say nerf warlocks for being able to draw a bunch of cards and play 8/8 giants for 0 sometimes... the point is every class has something going for it and usually its not even the class thats the problem.
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Posts: 38
Shadowstep is the problem, not preparation.

If shadowstep worked so that the effect took place next turn, it would be a lot more balanced if you leave preparation as is.

The general "problem" with rogue is that they have great cards that synergies well because of their low costs plus they benefit more from the coin then any other class except mages.
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Posts: 20
If shadowstep were the problem then why isnt it popping up with all the other neutral cards that are rare, epic, or legendary? Shadowstep is so good because of Leeroy Jenkins, shadowstep by itself isnt that great of a card. Remove leeroy and shadowstep is just another ok spell, remove auctioneer and miracle rogue has no card draw engine to combo off of. Rogue cards are not the problem, its the neutral cards that are being comboed with the rogue cards that are making the rogue cards seem so good. All in all you can beat miracle rogue with Taunt all day, people just dont know how to use it or build a deck to combat the rogue decks. The worst matchup for the miracle rogue is the mirror match :)
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Posts: 860
05/15/2014 10:34 PMPosted by Jobber
Now to beat the miracle rogue leeroy shenanigans. High level players already know this and do it very well. "TAUNT" my god a simple mechanic called taunt is the miracle rogue hate all day. People still argue its not because they got double sapped...sometimes you just have all the answers to win a game and thats part of any game ever made so learn to understand it. Ive been brickwalled and stop dead in my tracks because the person playing against me knew how and when to use TAUNT against me.
I'm gonna be acerbic in this post but are you a high level player? How do you know this stuff?
If you want to give actual advise: there is no real counter to miracle rogue without gimping your deck or changing what you play. Some decks simply do good against it and some don't. That's the rocket science behind it. And that's how the good players adapt to the meta. Besides most of them switching to miracle.

Advising people to change their deck, experiment and whatnot is kinda hypocritical when you copied your miracle rogue from the internet. Which hasn't really changed in months and doesn't need to adapt or do anything to combat the meta except that somewhere along the way they put in a farseer.
The game is not easy for you because you played mtg. It's easy because you play one of the top tier decks.
Rhetorics how people should change and how the answer is under their nose are meaningless if you are going to talk about anything besides casual play. In high-level play it doesn't work like that.
Also you are generally too new to be discussing balance but since you stated you are it's not a problem to have an opinion. But it's simply that, an opinion.
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Posts: 57
"Top tiered decks" is a flawed term. It is first and foremost the player the dictates how the deck is played and utilized. Furthermore, miracle rogue and rogue in general take a better than average player to win on a consistent basis, not based on the deck but based on smart play.
The game (hearthstone) IS easier for MTG players because they are used to CCG concepts. I would argue quite fervently that those concepts, which are much more detailed and difficult to get used to in the grand scheme of the game allow them to play with a higher understanding of what plays are more important and beneficial in the long run.
His post may have come off as a bit conceited but it is what it is. There are a great number of people who come from non-ccg backgrounds and largely from the Blizzard game base that have no experience in CCGs. Furthermore, they appreciate instant reward type games with little value on the "journey" so to speak or play itself within the game. This is especially true for casual (which make up the largest playerbase of WoW, who love the "hand holding" aspect of games.
He is correct however, in that the whining about rogue miracle decks is baseless. How many more limbs do you want to cut off before we are so gimp that you might as well take us out of the game?
Play, have fun. There its simple.
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Posts: 860
05/16/2014 10:03 AMPosted by WoundedMass
"Top tiered decks" is a flawed term. It is first and foremost the player the dictates how the deck is played and utilized.
Decks are not equal in overall strength. It's silly to argue with this.

05/16/2014 10:03 AMPosted by WoundedMass
The game (hearthstone) IS easier for MTG players because they are used to CCG concepts. I would argue quite fervently that those concepts, which are much more detailed and difficult to get used to in the grand scheme of the game allow them to play with a higher understanding of what plays are more important and beneficial in the long run.
I've seen so many "I am a MTG expert" threads of people that cannot handle this game so I am a little dubious about this. With the benefits there also come misconceptions and habits carried from other card games that don't help.

05/16/2014 10:03 AMPosted by WoundedMass
He is correct however, in that the whining about rogue miracle decks is baseless. How many more limbs do you want to cut off before we are so gimp that you might as well take us out of the game?
When a deck is one of the best in the game, it's hard for me to see how gimped you are.
My most played class is rogue, there is no need to do the me-vs-you thing.

05/16/2014 10:03 AMPosted by WoundedMass
Play, have fun. There its simple.

Yeah, actually that is the whole issue. Playing against miracle was never fun.
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Posts: 57
Playing against miracle was never fun is an obvious opinion. I don't like playing against mages. I think they are a boring and lifeless class. That doesn't mean anything.
No one said that all MTG or any of them were "experts". Stop putting words into my and their mouths. That doesn't change the fact that we previous players on the average will have more experience that will matter in the course of these games.
A deck being the best in the game (which it isn't) has no bearing on the class itself being mid to low tiered in terms of playability. I don't consider (nor do many others) having basically two viable decks to play for a class, that are NOT consistent compared to other classes being not gimped. Even if it were so. You cannot argue the fact (at least with any integrity) that rogues class cards are crap when it comes to minions and need reworking. I don't really care if you cant see the obvious. That's on you.
Lastly, it is not silly to argue that. The fact of the matter is that you and others are giving far too much credit to the deck itself as an excuse for your lack of skill. Let me applaud you though for playing a rogue as your most played class because that also means nothing. Just because you main a rogue doesn't mean you are any good at it. Evident by the fact you argue trivial points.
Edited by WoundedMass on 5/16/2014 1:02 PM PDT
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Posts: 860
05/16/2014 01:01 PMPosted by WoundedMass
No one said that all MTG or any of them were "experts".
They do.

05/16/2014 01:01 PMPosted by WoundedMass
The fact of the matter is that you and others are giving far too much credit to the deck itself as an excuse for your lack of skill.
There's no need to insult me. You have no idea at what levels do I play and assuming things just because I share a different opinion than you doesn't give you much credit.
I don't care about the class, we all know we are talking about miracle rogue. Two viable decks is two more than some other classes. I cannot call that "gimped".
You are getting a new minion. There's no need to fall down on the kidnapper is bad defense.
And lastly, I mentioned I play rogue because you were turning this into a "you don't play rogue, you just want us to suffer boohoo" thing. And yes, I am probably good at my rogue, thank you very much. There are ranks and levels for things like that. I will prefer proving myself there. You can continue insulting others.
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Posts: 93
MRogue's turns take about nine hours.
Killing your opponent via old age is OP.
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Posts: 57
I don't need to insult you. You do that all on your own with your emotional outburst about nothing. Miracle rogue isn't some separate entity apart from the rogue class itself. Again, you seem to be arguing tangents instead of staying on course.
The very fact that you are arguing an opinion rather than giving substantial evidence was my point. You have no grounds for an argument at all.
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Posts: 860
05/16/2014 04:15 PMPosted by WoundedMass
I don't need to insult you. You do that all on your own with your emotional outburst about nothing. Miracle rogue isn't some separate entity apart from the rogue class itself. Again, you seem to be arguing tangents instead of staying on course.
The very fact that you are arguing an opinion rather than giving substantial evidence was my point. You have no grounds for an argument at all.
What are you even talking about.. What is my emotional outburst? I gave my opinion to something. Stop being childish. Are we doing the "umad bro" now?
What evidence, what arguing, what tangents? Heart of the cards? What grounds for an argument do you want? Miracle rogue raped top ranks last month. Everyone was playing it. If this month all the best players in the world play miracle again, will that be "substantial evidence" enough for you? It's one of the most winning decks, it's one of the most boring to play against, it's one of the most uninteractive(so against the developer's general idea) and it's getting extremely popular. It's the deck I faced the most in casual this month. It was always a broken deck and it always hanged at the top tier. I simply hoped people will not learn about it. I could stand playing against it from time to time but now the whole meta is miracle.
What evidence did you give?
That "It's fine"? That random rogue cards that no one plays are bad? Does that make the deck weaker?
That top tier decks do not exist?
That it's not a separate entity from the rogue class? Of course it is a separate entity.. There are different decks in the game. That function differently. Can I discuss rush priest or will that break the class as a whole?
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