Warlock hero ability

Posts: 5
What if warlocks her ability drew you a card. but only after you ended your turn. you still get the card. but just cant play it that turn. Id like to hear what other people have to say.
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Posts: 1,651
Warlock hero power is fine, reminds me of all the threads suggesting fixes to the Warrior hero power until people finally realized that it was actually good and useful. Eventually you people will realize the Warlock's hero power is fine, not OP.
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Posts: 966
06/04/2014 02:49 PMPosted by OwlRaider
Warlock hero power is fine, reminds me of all the threads suggesting fixes to the Warrior hero power until people finally realized that it was actually good and useful. Eventually you people will realize the Warlock's hero power is fine, not OP.


Drawing twice as much as your opponent, at no extra cost, is fine?
Edited by Homicidal on 6/4/2014 11:43 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,966
06/04/2014 11:43 PMPosted by Homicidal
Drawing twice as much as your opponent, at no extra cost, is fine?


No extra cost? This is news to me.
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Posts: 76
06/04/2014 11:43 PMPosted by Homicidal
at no extra cost
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Posts: 966
06/05/2014 12:10 AMPosted by Tsenzei
06/04/2014 11:43 PMPosted by Homicidal
Drawing twice as much as your opponent, at no extra cost, is fine?


No extra cost? This is news to me.


2 life, my mistake. What a disaster, two life for a card what a fee
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Posts: 1,131
06/05/2014 12:53 AMPosted by Homicidal
06/05/2014 12:10 AMPosted by Tsenzei
...

No extra cost? This is news to me.


2 life, my mistake. What a disaster, two life for a card what a fee

Still wrong.
2 Life and 2 Mana.
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Posts: 966
06/05/2014 12:59 AMPosted by Greywind
...

2 life, my mistake. What a disaster, two life for a card what a fee

Still wrong.
2 Life and 2 Mana.


It's a hero power though and if you're in late game your mana won't be clogged if you're a zoolock and if you're a handlock you won't be doing anything except maybe a watcher so it still doesn't change much
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Posts: 6
I agree that the hero power is at the heart of Warlocks being more powerful than they should be.

The fact that a Warlock can draw again once a turn means they have far more consistency available to them than any other class in the game.

Zoo is so powerful because you can drop your whole hand by turn 3 or 4 and not have to top deck because you can draw 2 cards a turn to get back up to speed. Since most cards in the deck cost 2-3 mana losing 2 mana to hero power has little effect and generally low cost taunters will make up for the lost 2 life.

Handlocks on the other hand have consistency through draw to get them the cards they need to just barely survive, and even if you try to keep them above certain life totals so they can't molten giant, they can tap themselves down anyway.

This is not an opinion, it is a fact. No class has as high a win percentage as Warlocks on Hearthstats (constructed). They have a greater than 50% win percentage against every class except Hunters. Every other class has 2 or more classes that they have less than 50% win rate against.

I do like the idea of drawing at the end of turn also, though i'd go so far as to make a slight alteration. "At the beginning of your next turn draw an additional card" same cost, 2 health and 2 mana to achieve the same goal, it just stops them have more options on the same turn.

My solutions to the hero power is make it no longer cost health, but instead make all minions played next turn cost 1 more mana. Alternatively, remove the health cost and make it, Draw a card, the first card you play next turn costs 2 additional mana.
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Posts: 611
06/05/2014 01:53 AMPosted by Homicidal
...
Still wrong.
2 Life and 2 Mana.


It's a hero power though and if you're in late game your mana won't be clogged if you're a zoolock and if you're a handlock you won't be doing anything except maybe a watcher so it still doesn't change much

If zoo reached late game it means he already lost, handlock also isnt the greatest late game, because the gaints will fall to BGH, TBK and other removal so he will just life tap to his death.
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Posts: 246
06/05/2014 06:27 AMPosted by Prodan
If zoo reached late game it means he already lost, handlock also isnt the greatest late game, because the gaints will fall to BGH, TBK and other removal so he will just life tap to his death.


I don't like to fight these decks, but this, this is the simple truth. thanks for saying it :)
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Posts: 665
06/05/2014 05:50 AMPosted by Hellhound500
This is not an opinion, it is a fact. No class has as high a win percentage as Warlocks on Hearthstats (constructed). They have a greater than 50% win percentage against every class except Hunters. Every other class has 2 or more classes that they have less than 50% win rate against.

Data or it is just opinion.
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Posts: 2,966
06/05/2014 08:33 PMPosted by NerdEx
06/05/2014 05:50 AMPosted by Hellhound500
This is not an opinion, it is a fact. No class has as high a win percentage as Warlocks on Hearthstats (constructed). They have a greater than 50% win percentage against every class except Hunters. Every other class has 2 or more classes that they have less than 50% win rate against.

Data or it is just opinion.


Likely going off of Hearthstats' April report. Based on volunteered information spanning a significant number of games.

I don't think it's overly reliable simply because it IS volunteered information, and also that it doesn't distinguish success at various ranked (just "constructed" and "arena" from what I recall, though it might have also seperated Casual and Ranked as well, I forget).

On the other hand, there is no real contradicting data at this time either. Still, within a margin of error it's not like the numbers were terribly unacceptable (in my view).

Speaking of which, did they issue a new report for last month yet? I'd be curious how much if anything has changed since.

EDIT: Here's a link:
http://hearthstats.net/apr (It was released in early May, thus the header).

No news yet for the May report.

One thing I think is interesting, is that Warlock has a relatively low win-rate against everything except Priests in Arena. Card draw is arguably more valuable in constructed play, but I do think it's worth point out simply because there is such a disparity. If the Warlock's Power is that important to overperformance, it shouldn't be such a big difference between Constructed and Arena (over 10 points overall, with Warlock being dead last in Arena winrates and 1st in constructed according to the submitted data that Hearthstats got).
Edited by Tsenzei on 6/5/2014 9:47 PM PDT
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Posts: 6
If the Warlock's Power is that important to overperformance, it shouldn't be such a big difference between Constructed and Arena (over 10 points overall, with Warlock being dead last in Arena winrates and 1st in constructed according to the submitted data that Hearthstats got).


Not strictly true, since Arena places a massive weight on conserving hero health. The warlock's hero power effectively does the job of your opponent for you. Since if you have to tap to find an answer to his card, his card has already done 2 damage. This is the reason Warlocks suffer in Arena. In constructed you can build a deck that looks after your health through taunts or sheer speed of destruction.

I appreciate your attempt to constructively address my post rather than just throw out "data or it's just opinion" which helps no one...

At the end of the day I don't want to win every battle, but i do want a chance other than just happening to draw the PERFECT hand so i can survive barely until turn 5 and get through Zoo's assault. The other problem is that their hero ability gives them so much flexibility they can have multiple working archetypes. It sounds like a ridiculous assertion, but the fact that they have many working archetypes means that you can lose the game purely because you mulligan'd for one type of deck and they are playing another.
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Posts: 4,686
Would make the Lock Hero power far too underpowered
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Posts: 2,966
06/06/2014 02:05 AMPosted by Hellhound500
Not strictly true, since Arena places a massive weight on conserving hero health. The warlock's hero power effectively does the job of your opponent for you. Since if you have to tap to find an answer to his card, his card has already done 2 damage. This is the reason Warlocks suffer in Arena. In constructed you can build a deck that looks after your health through taunts or sheer speed of destruction.


Indeed, like I said before, Card Draw is generally more useful in Constructed; but I still don't think it would be a 10-point swing, even with the relative lack of mirror-matches (due to it also being the least popular class).

So the way I see it either the margin of error is large enough that the Constructed values might also be incorrect to a significant degree (though that only means it could be less balanced or more balanced than presented), or it has less to do with the Hero Power itself.

At the end of the day I don't want to win every battle, but i do want a chance other than just happening to draw the PERFECT hand so i can survive barely until turn 5 and get through Zoo's assault.


I do think you're exaggerating with your needs somewhat here. Aside from this, even if Zoo specifically is nerfed, you'd still have to deal with Rush in general. You're still going to need to use the same sort of cards/hand that you generally use against Zoo to slow/stop Rush as well.

Also: Turns 1-4 have very little to do with Warlocks Hero Power when playing Zoo (even if they draw, they typically won't be able to use that card on the same turn, or that card is little different from what they already had in their hand anyway). Turn 5+ is when they're more fully able to utilize that extra draw to actually add to their board presence.

So what I'm getting at is that nerfing the Hero Power would probably not reduce your mulligan requirements significantly.

What I do think would help, is introducing more cards (especially for Priest) that can help better address Rush, Zoo, or swarming (Murlock and such) Aggro. To give players better access to proper responses. Naxx will help at least slightly with this (still waiting on a lot of cards to be previewed). The full (100 cards) expansion that is set to come out after Naxx might end up changing the scene completely.

The other problem is that their hero ability gives them so much flexibility they can have multiple working archetypes. It sounds like a ridiculous assertion, but the fact that they have many working archetypes means that you can lose the game purely because you mulligan'd for one type of deck and they are playing another.


True, but this isn't unique to Warlock. Tempo Rogue vs. Miracle Rogue can really mess someone up in a mulligan. Aggro Warrior vs. Control Warrior is a similar conundrum to Warlock (war... war never changes... apparently). Mage Aggro vs. Freeze Mage/Mage Giants.

Generally speaking, if you can't mulligan for both early-game and late game variations of a class at the same time, you should probably mulligan for either the faster one, or the one you've seen the most of (or know your opponent is using if you've played against them specifically) recently.
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Posts: 38
The warlock power isn't really a problem, but other classes shoud have the possibility to include more decent drawing cards imo (or cantrips)
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Posts: 6
I do think you're exaggerating with your needs somewhat here. Aside from this, even if Zoo specifically is nerfed, you'd still have to deal with Rush in general. You're still going to need to use the same sort of cards/hand that you generally use against Zoo to slow/stop Rush as well.

Also: Turns 1-4 have very little to do with Warlocks Hero Power when playing Zoo (even if they draw, they typically won't be able to use that card on the same turn, or that card is little different from what they already had in their hand anyway). Turn 5+ is when they're more fully able to utilize that extra draw to actually add to their board presence.


The difference is not in turns 1-4, it's in turns 4-6 any other class other than Warlock, if you can survive the turn 1-4 assault you're normally fine. You may be on around 15 life but you've got a turn or 2 to stabilize before they can throw anything else at you. Warlocks, if you kill everything they have on board, they are still only 2 turns away from drawing 4 cards which are so cheap to play that they can play them even after drawing the additional card. My point is that every class other than warlock runs out of steam after that initial burst if you can weather it because they simply can not draw back into the fight, they have to give up the ability to refresh their hand in order to hurt you enough early game to make the deck work.

True, but this isn't unique to Warlock. Tempo Rogue vs. Miracle Rogue can really mess someone up in a mulligan. Aggro Warrior vs. Control Warrior is a similar conundrum to Warlock (war... war never changes... apparently). Mage Aggro vs. Freeze Mage/Mage Giants.


Again, it's about the ability to get enough draw to get the answers. Zoo allows warlocks to play their hand and then draw for sustainability. Handlock draws to lower their life for combos and get to their own survivability before you've had enough turns to make up for potentially picking the wrong opening hand. While Warrior is very similar in that their 2 archetypes are close to the massive rush / late game steamroller of Warlocks. They are missing the key ingredient to consistency, solid draw. Their control deck relies on you playing a certain way, and short of getting lucky with draw themselves they don't have many ways to top up their hand. Which warlock can do every turn. On the flip side, the aggro warrior is win or lose by turn 6. If you can throw out anything that makes them use even 3 cards on minion instead of your face they are burn out and have no hope of ever getting back into the match as they have no draw.

Much like Hunters had to be slowed down by a turn with Unleash the Hounds, their needs to be a change made to Warlocks, some way to slow them down, even if just by 1 turn. Maybe the hero power isn't the answer. Maybe the problem lies with the discard mechanic they also have. A 0 mana cost 4 damage spell is exceptionally powerful, if you have an empty hand, after all. You can tap to get a card after using it. Possibly increase it's mana cost to 1 would be enough to slow them down.
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Posts: 2,966
Mostly, what you're talking about here in regard to the Aggro-specific discussion is a difference of 2-3 cards (which is certainly significant), and that can be made up with by using actual cards. Those cards might have less effectiveness than what a Warlock would run instead, but they don't directly cost health either, which means they have more turns to be alive to use those cards.

If you're Control, you can turn the tide with increased Value; and if you're Aggro, you can turn the tide with the help of the extra 4-6 damage the Warlock caused themselves (ideally, obviously, not everything goes ideally) by getting a suitable finisher before there's can take effect.

Regarding Mulligans and draw consistency... There are many times a Control Warrior will out-draw a Control Warlock though, and if a Warrior Aggro deck isn't including some draw themselves I say that's their own fault. Though it's not like Warlock is alone with it's consistent draw. Druid and Rogue are known for their relatively solid draw, albeit not necessarily as strong for all current deck options; and I think Paladin has good card-based options for both Aggro and Control, with Pally Aggro making a bit of a resurgence of late.

Shaman have the worst draw ever though. Still, based on the May Hearthstats report they are still doing quite well (though again I have my issues with that report as any sort of conclusive thing) with the UTH nerf. Whether that's an abundance of answers (so they are less reliant on draw) or some other factor, I think it shows that the impact of Life Tap (while obviously significant) is not so far out of line it needs to be changed (at least based on available data). But that's just my own view.

Regarding related topics: I've always said that Soul Fire is pushing what's acceptable for class cards (as is Fire Elemental). That said, I think reducing the damage would be better than increasing mana cost, but that's my own opinion (that said, I do think it would be a good option for Preparation should the data indicate Miracle Rogue is being too effective, which so far is maybe not the case). For one, if you're using it out of an otherwise empty hand and then Life Tapping afterward, the extra mana will almost never make a real difference. Mostly, what it would effect is efficiency of Turn 1-4 in aggro, and general Control efficiency where it's more likely they'll be discarding something anyway. Simply lowering it's damage does a lot to reduce it's impact on the game, including those "empty hand" scenarios.

In any event: Even with the new May report, I'm still not certain what to make of available data, and whether or not there needs to actually be a change to existing cards. I'm sure Blizzard is looking into the possibility of course, or already have and came to a tentative decision, maybe waiting for Naxx to hit before reevaluating the situation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it's been an interesting and generally enjoyable conversation. It's nice to be able to discuss facts and ideas rather than rhetoric and emotional arguments.
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Posts: 1,131
This conversation is far too rational, calm and enjoyable to read.
Let me spruce it up!

Player 1: RAWR NERF WARLOCK!
Player 2: !@#$ NOOB! L2P!
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