Demon card reworking

Posts: 249
With the voidcaller coming into being demons other than flame imp, void walker, doomguard and jaxx might see play but the new card also has me thinking (again *sigh*) about why the other demons are bad and what could be done to make them good stand alone. To that poin I will be talking about the 3 demons that are considered undisputed in their badness (pit lord, Felguard, succubus)dread infernal and void terrorare not yet considered beyond hope and so I will leave them be for now.

Before I begin let me explain the math for the minion value I'm about to say

minion value- the wisp is 0 cost but has non zero stats, as such it must have some value, I Choose to call this .5 mana worth of value and as such all minions with identical attack/health are .5 less than that number (5/5 minion = 4.5 mana worth of value)

Let us take a look at the more popular demons for a good mathmatical breakdown of why they are good

Flame imp- 3/2 is 2 mana eorth of value but the second mana is paid in health, the flame imp casts sinister strike on your hero (-3 health) and as such makes himself properly costed.

Void walker 1/3 is 1.5 and assuming taunt is .5 mana the voidwalker is strictly speaking too powerful at 2 mana for 1, the balance comes from having stats skewed towards defence and that goes once a damage buff creature comes along.

Doomguard- 5/7 is 5.5 and assuming that charge is 1 mana that makes the Doomguard 6.5, if drawing cards is about 1.5 mana (arcane intelect is draw 2 for 3 and is the smallest pure card draw mechanic) that means the doomguard is only worth 3.5. The thing that makes the doomguard worth it is that due to it's 7 health it 2 for 1's, the additional card needed to kill it increases the Doomguard's value by 1.5 making it so that even if you discard twice the doomguard was still worth his price. Discarding 1 or even 0 cards is what makes him exceptionally powerful, that variable is what makes him an mvp

jaxx- the eradar lord is 3/15 which is about 8.5 mana for 9 but he also heals you for 1 mana per 3 health healed (as damage/healing to heroes seeming to be valued at .33 mana per damage) and summons 5.5 mana creatures for 2, the only reason he isn't broken is because it takes 3 turns for full power to be brought to bear.

Now let us look at the unpopular creatures

Succubus- The succubus has the same general idea as the doomguard but is far inferior, why? Well the lack of charge is one thing but also the lack of high health to make up for the card drop. She is a 4/3 which is 3 mana but with 1.5 in drawback putting her at 1.5 mana for 2.

The solution lies in what her role in a warlock deck is, does she pressure/pound higher cost people into the ground or is she about trading efficently with other minions of lower cost? If it's the latter 3/5 would be best but this gives her near guaranteed 2 for 1 potential, taking her from a fair 2 mana card to effectively a 3.5 mana card for 2 The best option would be to make her a 5/3 this would make the succubus great for trading and pressure but also risky because she might get picked off, a great card to hold until later for damage

Felguard- oh Felguard, a 3/5 with taunt is 4 mana but the Felguard also happens to reverse wild growth you, this makes the Felguard a 2 mana creature for 3, very bad value. The point of a demon is to get great stats in exchange for a bad drawback but his is very onerous, granted, much like wild growth the effect depreciates in value as the game goes on but it does so much to slowly.

The solution is to simply increase the stats by 1 mana. Staying as close to warcraft lore as possible his change could be to just recieve charge but the minion's ability was a speed boost, not actually charge, moreover the Felguard was equal parts meat shield and melee beater so it would make sense that his stats reflected this I would just make him a 5/5 and be done with it. he hits harder than any non mukla 3 drop and can take big hits, a senjin killer so to speak.

Pit lord- the pit lord is theoretically intended to be the hig boy flame Imp but was unfortunately too onerous to be played ashis upside was not quite up enough. A 5/6 is a 5 mana creature but in return he does 5 damage to you, effectively mind blasting you in order to play it. Assuming mind blast is properly priced at 2 mana, the pit lord is only worth 3 mana but is priced as a 4 mana card

Like the Felguard the pit lord is in need of just 1 mana woth of stat boosts to be worth his cost, the pit lords are thedemon tanky melee dudes and so one would think health would be greater than attack. With that said 6/7 would be the perfect stat blockat 4 mana all classes have the removal necessary to kill the pit lord and for such a big penalty the math agrees that this would be the correct decision.
Edited by Brawl97 on 6/8/2014 10:59 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,041
Succubus
At 5/3 she can still be taken out by any common 2 mana drop, which was the issue in the first place.
I do not see that change doing anything for her.
At all.
The issue remains.

Felguard

5/5 with taunt?
Could be worth a try.
He'd trade favorable with a Yeti and a Taz'dingo at the least, which would be great.
Still, I loathe the idea of losing a mana crystal. It just puts you behind too much.
Still a stupid concept. I'd rather have that changed.

Pit Lord.

I still don't think I'd run him at 6/7.
The 5 HP damage to yourself is just too damn much, especially with Life tapping and playing Flame Imps also.
That would be a combined 16HP damage you do to yourself, if you play all four, and that is without life tapping and without the enemy even hitting you once.
Just far too much.

Just change the self-damage to 3HP instead 5, and he would (maybe) be playable.
Edited by Greywind on 6/9/2014 3:10 AM PDT
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Posts: 249
SuccubusAt 5/3 she can still be taken out by any common 2 mana drop, which was the issue in the first place.I do not see that change doing anything for her.At all.The issue remains.


Perhaps, a 4/4 might be better so as to avoid auto dying to other 2 drops, I enjoy playing aggro so putting her at 5 was my inner pressure deck talking

5/5 with taunt?Could be worth a try.He'd trade favorable with a Yeti and a Taz'dingo at the least, which would be great.Still, I loathe the idea of losing a mana crystal. It just puts you behind too much.Still a stupid concept. I'd rather have that changed.


I can understand your opinion, it is a rough drawback but it isn't that bad, it is kinda like your opponent wild growthing, anoying but far from fatal, especially in aggressive decks.

still don't think I'd run him at 6/7.The 5 HP damage to yourself is just too damn much, especially with Life tapping and playing Flame Imps also.That would be a combined 16HP damage you do to yourself, if you play all four, and that is without life tapping and without the enemy even hitting you once.Just far too much


I disagree, in a deck like zoo or any aggressive deck where you have initiative life loss doesn't hurt and a big weakness of aggro decks are that giant dudes with taunt are a nightmare, a 5/6 and especially a 6/7 for 4 solves that very well. Even if your opponent picks him off the mana needed to do so is slowing them down too much against the other minions on board. Lowering damage to 3 would also be the easy answer to the problem but I did this assuming blizz won't change that.
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