Naturalize

Posts: 280
Wanted to start a discussion on the viability of naturalize.

This may have been answered before but at what point does naturalize become an even trade? I'm thinking 5 cost? 6 cost?

I'm thinking in a control vs control this is an excellent option to remove a key late game component such as a rag, Alex, ysera, etc. My argument is that in these situations the card draw doesn't even matter if you remove one of their late game options. Not to mention this could accelerate their fatigue in a super late game scenario.

General opinions?
Edited by Perpetuella on 6/16/2014 7:15 PM PDT
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Posts: 201
It has been answered before and there's already a thread about it still on the front page with the most recent post being under 2 days ago...

The 3 opinions you will run into are:

  • "It's NEVER a good idea to let your enemy draw." This is basic and shallow thinking.
  • "Only have at most 1 in the deck in case you need to get past a Taunt to attack for lethal, like with the FoN+SR combo." Still shallow as all 'to the face' thinking is, but it's at least using a tool that's available instead of completely dismissing it as rarely if ever usable.
  • "Use it if you know how to use it." The correct way of looking at all cards. If your deck has cards that trade better on average, you DO NOT lose card advantage just because they draw, especially if the only other way you could remove the minion is by using 2 or more of your own cards and that card also threatens to win the game if you don't deal with it. You'll still have more cards in your deck at your disposal for the rest of the game if you've traded well. For example, I'd always much rather Naturalize Ysera than kill her with Swipe + damaging and/or killing my Chillwind Yeti and Druid of the Claw, especially if they already used 2 cards to remove my Ancient of War.


Anyway, there's a search forum tool also.
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Posts: 246
Too many people will give the sheep answer of "never use it". I personally love it! I put two in almost all of my Druid decks because the gain in tempo is often times enough to win you the game, even when your opponent has a full hand. It's a terrific card!
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Posts: 921
Naturalize is a situational card. it works very well in the following scenarios:

1. Your opponent has a full hand and a big minion. Destroy it, deal 4 damage. That's fantastic.
2. Your opponent has played a win-condition that you can't remove for whatever reason. Them drawing 2 cards is better than losing.
3. You have a win-condition and there is a minion in your way. It doesn't matter if they draw because they're toast!

Outside of those, you're going to be hard pressed to come up with a scenario where naturalize helps you in a consistent manner. 2 extra cards is HUGE.

Personally, I would love to see it read:

"Destroy target minion, the minion's owner draws 2 cards."

So i could dust my own minions for 2 cards.
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Posts: 733
06/17/2014 10:45 AMPosted by Marmatag
Outside of those, you're going to be hard pressed to come up with a scenario where naturalize helps you in a consistent manner. 2 extra cards is HUGE.

Basically what he said. Naturalize is a very situational card. Playing it outside of one of the siutations he stated is usually going to hurt you more than help you, causing naturalize to be a card that sits in your hand 95% of the time. I'd much rather have a card that's good in most situations, than a card that I can rarely play. Deck building 101.
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Posts: 201
06/17/2014 03:13 PMPosted by Applesoup
Basically what he said. Naturalize is a very situational card. Playing it outside of one of the siutations he stated is usually going to hurt you more than help you, causing naturalize to be a card that sits in your hand 95% of the time. I'd much rather have a card that's good in most situations, than a card that I can rarely play. Deck building 101.

And you think TBK and BGH are not situational? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just drop down TBK on a Goldshire Footman or TBK on a Silver Hand Recruit with 2x Blessing of Might. Again, shallow and basic thinking used to argue against the use Naturalize.

06/17/2014 10:45 AMPosted by Marmatag
Personally, I would love to see it read:

"Destroy target minion, the minion's owner draws 2 cards."

So i could dust my own minions for 2 cards.

You may as well have said, "I would like it to say: 'You automatically win the game and all future games you play and you get all the current cards as well as all future cards in Golden form.'" Who wouldn't want to Naturalize a heavily damaged minion or Violet Apprentice to draw 2 cards for 1 mana? People need to stop suggesting "owner" as a change; it's a less than half-baked idea.
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Posts: 733
06/18/2014 09:01 AMPosted by starblade876
And you think TBK and BGH are not situational? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just drop down TBK on a Goldshire Footman or TBK on a Silver Hand Recruit with 2x Blessing of Might. Again, shallow and basic thinking used to argue against the use Naturalize.

I know TBK and BGH are situational...TBK puts a 4/5 on the board and kills any taunt for free. You're much more likely to come across a situation where you can effectively use this card. Not to mention, there is NO downside. BGH - the same. Kill a 7+ attack minion for free and put a 4/2 on the board? Can be combo'd well with buff cards? Many more situations where I can use this, and NO downside. Naturalize - kill any minion and give your opponent a card advantage...hmm there's about 3 situations where I would use this, and they rarely, if ever, happen.
Edited by Applesoup on 6/18/2014 10:37 AM PDT
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Posts: 98
I laughed at a druid that naturalized my minion in a mirror match (I was Ramp). Then he played coldlite oracle and stuffed my hand, destroying a card on the same turn, then subsequent turn.

I have used naturalize t-10 to destroy a taunt, to SR/FoN for the win.

It is how you use the card. It is instant/cheap removal. The drawback can be used as an advantage and the card can be synergized with other cards (generate tokens, card draw with AH etc).

It can also sit dead in a hand. Results may vary, and to each their own.
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Posts: 28
Seems like it would be strong in high ranks. You can usually force hand lock and miracle to burn at least one draw due to their hand size. Naturalize a giant against a nine card hand is perfect.
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Posts: 733
06/18/2014 12:04 PMPosted by Dgpt
Seems like it would be strong in high ranks. You can usually force hand lock and miracle to burn at least one draw due to their hand size. Naturalize a giant against a nine card hand is perfect.

The thing is, even burning a card is not that big of a deal. How many games do you play where your opponent plays all of his cards? Probably not that many. Essentially, all the cards he didn't play were "burned."
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Posts: 28
Not so much the loss of cards, unless you hit leeroy :) But it just gives you a chance to make sure you are the only one drawing cards.
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Posts: 733
06/19/2014 07:35 AMPosted by Dgpt
Not so much the loss of cards, unless you hit leeroy :) But it just gives you a chance to make sure you are the only one drawing cards.

what?
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Posts: 243
Burning cards looks funny, but if you dont kill a decent threat with it, then you just wasted your 1 mana removal. Use when its needed, it takes a while to learn that.
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Posts: 1,415
06/16/2014 10:04 PMPosted by starblade876
The 3 opinions you will run into are:"It's NEVER a good idea to let your enemy draw." This is basic and shallow thinking."Only have at most 1 in the deck in case you need to get past a Taunt to attack for lethal, like with the FoN+SR combo." Still shallow as all 'to the face' thinking is, but it's at least using a tool that's available instead of completely dismissing it as rarely if ever usable."Use it if you know how to use it." The correct way of looking at all cards. If your deck has cards that trade better on average, you DO NOT lose card advantage just because they draw, especially if the only other way you could remove the minion is by using 2 or more of your own cards and that card also threatens to win the game if you don't deal with it. You'll still have more cards in your deck at your disposal for the rest of the game if you've traded well. For example, I'd always much rather Naturalize Ysera than kill her with Swipe + damaging and/or killing my Chillwind Yeti and Druid of the Claw, especially if they already used 2 cards to remove my Ancient of War.


i like how you blatantly diss the people that use 1 and 2 so all you doing is saying is if you dont agree with you you a (fill in blank here)

but i have one in my deck to get rid of an annoying minion/taunt

so guy i quoted knows where i stand
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Posts: 15
Something that has to be considered is what resource is holding your opponent in check.
An aggro deck with lots of cheap minions that has just dumped most or all of his hand on the board will be able to utilize two cards the next round, a slow control deck with lots of expensive cards might not even be able to empty his hand during the game.
Going from 0 to 2 1-4 mana cards is a bigger swing than going from 5 to 7 5-8 mana cards on turn 5.
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Posts: 201
06/18/2014 10:35 AMPosted by Applesoup
I know TBK and BGH are situational...TBK puts a 4/5 on the board and kills any taunt for free. You're much more likely to come across a situation where you can effectively use this card. Not to mention, there is NO downside. BGH - the same. Kill a 7+ attack minion for free and put a 4/2 on the board? Can be combo'd well with buff cards? Many more situations where I can use this, and NO downside. Naturalize - kill any minion and give your opponent a card advantage...hmm there's about 3 situations where I would use this, and they rarely, if ever, happen.

Right. And what happens if the threatening minion doesn't have Taunt and you have TBK and the threatening minion has less than 7 attack and you have BGH in your hand? That's called a downside. 3 and 6 mana also usually means you're less likely to make any other significant plays. Again, downside. What happens when you have one of those, but you need the other? Once more, downside.

Also, again, card advantage isn't just card draw and, especially and particularly, card draw doesn't mean board control nor an automatic win. If you traded well before the Naturalize, your opponent wouldn't necessarily have more cards in their hand than you after it. For example, if you did a 2:1 trade and a 3:2 trade and you both drew the same amount of cards, you would be up 2 cards before the Naturalize and have an even amount afterward. Needing a cheap, unrestricted removal to maintain or regain tempo and board control isn't rare for me.

06/19/2014 09:29 PMPosted by Piviot
i like how you blatantly diss the people that use 1 and 2 so all you doing is saying is if you dont agree with you you a (fill in blank here)

but i have one in my deck to get rid of an annoying minion/taunt

so guy i quoted knows where i stand

Sorry, called it as I saw it. If you can't see more uses out of the card than "kill taunt + FoN+SR," you have a narrow or closed minded opinion, which is not something I usually grant sympathy towards. On the other hand, if you do see how it can be useful but it doesn't fit with the deck you want to play, that's fine. I never said it was bad to use it to get past a Taunt for cheap; I said it was bad to think that's the only use for the card. Knowing how to use a card means knowing that it might not belong in every deck. Leeroy? Has use, doesn't belong in every deck. Ragnaros? Same thing. Naturalize doesn't fit in every deck.
Edited by starblade876 on 6/20/2014 8:29 AM PDT
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Posts: 733
06/20/2014 08:28 AMPosted by starblade876
Right. And what happens if the threatening minion doesn't have Taunt and you have TBK and the threatening minion has less than 7 attack and you have BGH in your hand? That's called a downside. 3 and 6 mana also usually means you're less likely to make any other significant plays. Again, downside. What happens when you have one of those, but you need the other? Once more, downside.

And what happens when I have 5 mana but only have 6 mana cards? DOWNSIDE? lol. I'm not trying to argue that cards aren't situational...........the point is that naturalize is so incredibly situational that it's not worth having. TBK and BGH are fine.

06/20/2014 08:28 AMPosted by starblade876
Also, again, card advantage isn't just card draw and, especially and particularly, card draw doesn't mean board control nor an automatic win. If you traded well before the Naturalize, your opponent wouldn't necessarily have more cards in their hand than you after it. For example, if you did a 2:1 trade and a 3:2 trade and you both drew the same amount of cards, you would be up 2 cards before the Naturalize and have an even amount afterward. Needing a cheap, unrestricted removal to maintain or regain tempo and board control isn't rare for me.

And if you did these trades and didn't use naturalize, you'd be up even more...you might even win! Why put him back in the game when you're so far ahead?

I just don't find naturalize to be a good card. You can use it all you want I guess, but at high levels of play, you WILL lose.
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Posts: 18
Naturalize gets lots of crap for the side-effect of draw, but a 1 mana destroy is a 1 mana destroy. I generally take 2 in my decks.
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Posts: 337
There's three metas to consider in any ccg: casual, competitive, and pro.

Casual is what it sounds like. You're not trying to enter tourneys or gain ranks, you're just here to have fun. Naturalize is great in casual because it removes a threat while still having enough mana to almost always play one of your own.

Competitive is in-between casual and pro. You're trying for rank on a ladder, or maybe you're entering a local tourney or two. This is the level where you need to start weighing a cost-benefit-analysis of the cards you run. Naturalize may pass muster here if used in the situations already outlined above.

Pro is what it sounds like. You're in it to win it, you're good enough to make bank, you're Amaz, etc. If you're looking to compete at this level you should start by looking at what the other pros use, and I can tell you that NOBODY who ran druid in DH Summer Top 8 used Naturalize in their decks. It's too situational for the pros to consider worth slotting.

So the TL;DR version is to figure out which meta you're going to compete in, and work things out from there. Casually, just about anything is fine. Competitively, maybe you keep naturalize maybe you don't. Pro, you don't run it period.

The reason you sort out which meta you're entering is because the game changes based on the skill level of your opponents. Just because someone netdecked Amaz's priest doesn't mean they're going to have a 51+% win rate with it. You need to make decisions all the time in ccg's, and pros make fewer mistake than competitive players, who in turn make fewer mistakes than casuals, as a general rule.

So the caliber of your opponent, in a sense, dictates how much leeway you have with your deck. Now, bear in mind there's nothing to stop a pro player from smurfing in casual mode, but those instances are rarer than people tend to think.
Edited by Dimlhugion on 6/20/2014 12:36 PM PDT
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Posts: 105
i think that in current meta at least one naturalize is a must-have in most druid decks, for sure in ramp, which i play.
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