My issue with the warlock discard mechanic

Posts: 1,129
As a shaman, If i play any of my overload cards, I pay the cost, and there is no getting around that. Warlock's drawback is that they need to take damage,(flame imp) or discard cards in order to use spells like soulfire, or doomguard.

The former is fine in my opinion, because the drawback of taking damage actually comes into play. However, as I try to climb from rank 3, I face handlock, after handlock, after handlock, after handlock, and they all play the exact same deck, and they all play it in the exact same way. Simply dump all of your low cost minions, lifetap if you have the mana, and then soul fire/doomguard when you have no/1 card in hand. Furthermore, the act of depleting one's hand is a miniscule drawback, when you draw twice as many cards per turn as I can.

To me, being able to play these cards without discarding due to an empty hand is a huge oversight by blizzard. If I use an overload spell, I pay the drawback, no matter what, whereas a warlock can not only circumvent his drawback, but it also works in tandem with the hero power very well. It feels more like a bug in game mechanics.

When i used to play pokemon, there was a card called "computer search", which required me to discard a card from my hand to use it. If I did not have a card to discard, I could not play computer search. This rule also held the same for tribute to the damned in yugioh.

Why is warlock the only class that doesn't have to pay for its drawback? Doomguard and soulfire should not be allowed to be used without discarding cards, or the drawback needs to be fixed in another way. It does not take very much thought, or effort, to play doomguard with an empty hand and lifetap away on the next turn, and it is not balanced.

currently rank 3 shaman, and never see other shamans, just warlocks and to a lesser extent druids.
Edited by AriseChicken on 6/26/2014 1:37 PM PDT
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Posts: 12
Agree with all the points mentioned above. This deck is hard enough to beat as it is, let alone having any "discard card" drawbacks being able to be played on an empty hand. Please fix this!
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Posts: 4
So basically your telling me that I should actually NEED a card in my hand in order for it to be discarded. I rather just discard my invisible cards ^.^
Don't change this bug!
It would mean i'd actually have to "try" and use strategic plays in order to win games -.-

I enjoy facerolling to be honest .
Edited by Jello on 6/26/2014 2:19 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,174
First of all the deck playing Doomguards and emptying its hand is called Zoo not Handlock. Second of all, this topic has been rehashed over a hundred times in these forums already, the bottom line is that there is a massive hidden cost to these cards that don't appear on the card's print and thus sheep like you don't see nor understand them. Honestly I couldn't be bothered repeating myself as to why you and the rest of your herd are wrong, go ahead and read 1 of the many other threads about this very topic. Also you should generally do that before posting new threads regardless of the topic, as the likelihood is that there are already plenty of threads about the same issue you want to post on, so just reply in 1 of the myriad of other threads rather than liter the forums with more spam.
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06/26/2014 12:42 PMPosted by AriseChicken
As a shaman, If i play any of my overload cards, I pay the cost, and there is no getting around that.


Yes there is. I've been killed many times by Shaman who have just enough mana to drop that last Lava Burst or Lightning Bolt into my face. You avoid paying for the overload by ending the game early.

Or you could drop an Unbound Elemental, making the Overload beneficial too. Or you could play your overloads when you won't be able to do anything next turn but use a totem anyway (e.g. turn 3 and you have an overload and 2 5-cost minions in your hand).

There are plenty of ways to get around every "bad" card effect in the game. Just today I played a Shaman who dumped Leeroy before playing at Lightning Storm, which he likely would have played anyway (I had 3 minions out and would have killed him next turn with them). You could say this was not "paying the full cost" of Leeroy since he killed the Whelps for free.
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06/26/2014 12:42 PMPosted by AriseChicken
As a shaman, If i play any of my overload cards, I pay the cost, and there is no getting around that. Warlock's drawback is that they need to take damage,(flame imp) or discard cards in order to use spells like soulfire, or doomguard.


As a shaman, you do pay the costs, but you don't always suffer from Overload (which is an effect, not a cost, see: interaction with Counterspell). You can Overload beyond your present/future Crystals. You can play out your hand such that Overload has absolutely zero impact on your next turn. You can win the game with your Overload card(s) thus invalidating the Overload, etc.

It's the same with Warlock.

Also, there are many issues with playing out your hand so that you avoid the actual discard effect, which make it still a drawback, just like there are issues with playing Overload in such a fashion that it wouldn't matter the following turn, etc.

Warlocks still pay the actual costs of their cards, but they can play around or mitigate the negative effects of their cards, same as everyone else.

When i used to play pokemon, there was a card called "computer search", which required me to discard a card from my hand to use it. If I did not have a card to discard, I could not play computer search. This rule also held the same for tribute to the damned in yugioh.


Different game, different rules. Consider this, if all Battlecry effects MUST be fulfilled in order to play a given card, how much would that impact non-Warlock cards? Cards like Houndmaster Shattered Sun Cleric would become less useful, and people could prevent an opponent from playing Leeroy by filling their own board. Arcane Golem would become useless past turn 10, etc.

Why is warlock the only class that doesn't have to pay for its drawback?


Naturalize and Coldlight Oracle work just fine (better, even) if your opponent's hand is full. Lorewalker Cho will not give your opponent more cards if their hand is full. Bananas are useless without a minion on the board. The upcoming Anubian for Rogue will have zero drawback if there are no other minions in play (or they want any of their others to be returned to their hand anyway). Shaman can over-Overload their mana or elsewise avoid the detrimental effect.

Anyone, but most commonly Ramp Druid, can make use of Alarm-O-Bot to play creatures for far less, as well as avoid all negative battlecry effects via that method (and all positive ones too of course).

Warlock is not the only class that can mitigate, avoid, or reverse their card's drawbacks. Not by a long shot.

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I know many who understand where you're coming from, but the simple fact is that you're basic premises are wrong to begin with.

TLDR:

It's not a cost. Other classes are also fully capable of avoiding negative effects from their cards. Avoiding discard has it's own issues, which still make it a drawback even if the direct effect is avoided.
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I understand what you are saying, but these situations are not likely to happen in most games, wheras the warlock mechanic will be ignored every game.
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06/26/2014 04:44 PMPosted by AriseChicken
I understand what you are saying, but these situations are not likely to happen in most games, wheras the warlock mechanic will be ignored every game.


Holy bias Batman!

So you're seriously saying...with everybody running Leeroy as a finisher...that Warlock discard is the only bad cost that is not regularly paid? Really? Do you actually play this game?

I think we're done here.
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Posts: 1,129
horrible argument. Just lost to comeback empty hand lifetap into doomguard again though, 5/7 with charge is pretty good w/ no drawback

btw doomguard is a lot more than just a finisher... it has better stats than leeroy all around

doomguard is also played for no drawback in literally every game for extreme value (not just fnishing)

every game

you also get 2 doomguards
Edited by AriseChicken on 6/26/2014 7:58 PM PDT
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i cant see how this is balanced, literally every game you face this
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You won't listen to any arguments and are just pissed off you lost. Go away.
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no, it is that you run soulfire/doomguard every game for far more value than you should.It's not about one game, it is literally every game.
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06/26/2014 12:42 PMPosted by AriseChicken
I face handlock, after handlock, after handlock, after handlock, and they all play the exact same deck, and they all play it in the exact same way. Simply dump all of your low cost minions, lifetap if you have the mana, and then soul fire/doomguard when you have no/1 card in hand.

Ye you dont even know what deck you are facing.
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must be balanced then
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06/26/2014 11:51 PMPosted by AriseChicken
must be balanced then

Just shows how clueless you are and have no right to complain about something you dont understand or care about.
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Funny thing is, this guy plays at a legend level, and Im pretty sure most of you arguing against arisechicken are struggling at rank 10. (Incoming WELL IM RANK 3 DUDE F*** you replies, and for that I reply, grats, 1 out of all of you are below rank 10, still nowhere close to arisechicken, 1v1 him if you're so confident.

To people saying there are "ways around overload" , yes there may be a way, but bottomline is that you ALWAYS get punished with overload, where as you DONT ALWAYS get punished to dispose cards as a lock, which I think in essence, is the main point of this argument.
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06/27/2014 11:42 AMPosted by Mischief

To people saying there are "ways around overload" , yes there may be a way, but bottomline is that you ALWAYS get punished with overload, where as you DONT ALWAYS get punished to dispose cards as a lock, which I think in essence, is the main point of this argument.


You also NEVER get a benefit from it. You have a minion that buffs every time you overload. And let's not even get into how HUGE card advantage is in this game. Overload doesn't cost you the all-important card advantage and force you to take 2 damage every turn afterward.

And no, you don't ALWAYS pay it, you can overload on a turn where you win the game (because of your cheap overload cards) and not suffer from it. Or you can over-overload (e.g. double dust devil on turn 1) so you are overloaded more mana than you actually have.

In short, stop crying and making stupid arguments. Some cards have drawbacks. Smart players figure out how to mitigate those drawbacks, bad players whine.
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Posts: 1,761
Simply dump all of your low cost minions, lifetap if you have the mana, and then soul fire/doomguard when you have no/1 card in hand. Furthermore, the act of depleting one's hand is a miniscule drawback, when you draw twice as many cards per turn as I can.

Are you sure its handlock? oO
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Posts: 1,129
Doomguard is not a finisher. Doomguard is an extremely strong monster that works with warlocks playing every card in your hand. If your arguement is that "overload doesnt count if the game ends that turn", it is not a strong argument. This is because i am not saying doomguard is just a finisher. I am also saying that this happens every game. There is a reason that the high ranks are completely infested with warlocks who all copied the same deck off of the internet.

same with soulfire

btw overloading for more mana than i have is a very weak play with dust devil
Edited by AriseChicken on 6/27/2014 2:56 PM PDT
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The great thing about a game like this, based on probability, is that you can show just how full of !@#$ a whiner is, with math.

The chance of drawing one discard (since there are four in the deck) after 8 draws is about 85%. The probability of drawing two is around 60%. So at least 60% of the time, you're going to end up with two discarders, meaning that something WILL get discarded.
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