My issue with the warlock discard mechanic

Posts: 4,278
[Re: Overload] I cannot circumvent this for no drawback like doomguard/soulfire.

Yes, you can, the sooner you accept this fact, the sooner you can move on with your life. Whether or not you WANT to is another matter entirely, but with the mechanics as they are, the negative impact of Overload is ENTIRELY avoidable.

Earth ele does not even have charge either. I do not have lifetap available every turn to promote the low mana curve and high NUMBER of cards spammed form the hand each turn.

None of which has anything to do with the negative effects of Overload or Discard.

The strength of Discard is not because of Lifetap. The strength of Discard is because there is a deck that functions well by playing out their hand. If Shaman had a better deck that did that, you'd see people complaining about how Shaman doesn't really have to pay for Overload for all the reasons I've already gone over.

While obviously the effects are different, there are similar ways to play around it to mitigate or avoid any actual penalties. Just because the deck YOU choose to play doesn't fit that mold doesn't negate that point.

Just like my choosing to play Handlock wouldn't negate the point that there are effective ways to play around Discard, despite the fact that if I wanted to play Doomguard in that deck, I'd almost always have to discard two cards simply because of how that deck plays, and it isn't worth it. Now, if Doomguard damaged me rather than caused discard? I'd play the hell out of it in Warlock Control.

Even if you actually had to pay full cost for your cards with discard, it wouldn't matter if you won the game on that turn either.

This is not strictly true. If you changed the effect to a cost, you would have far fewer times when you COULD win with it, simply because you couldn't play it then. Even if the cards discarded don't matter in that situation, the fact that you'd have to have them in your hand first would.

Why does every warlock player think this is an awesome situation for shaman, (ending game = no drawback right) but yet when it comes to their class, they also need to be able to ignore drawbacks, as well as be able to end the game?

If ending the game was the only way to get around non-Warlock drawbacks, I'd agree. The truth though is that people get around drawbacks a lot, and quite frankly, people get around Overload a lot. Whether it's by having off-curve follow-up turns to Overload (being 1 or 3+ mana above what they'd want/need otherwise), by playing out their hand so that Overload doesn't impact their next turn in any significant manner, or in the relatively rare case of using the Coin or turn 3-4 to over-Overload to partially reduce the impact via Dust Devils/Forked Lightning.

And that's just Shaman.


An interesting side note: Warlock has the fewest cards they can ignore the downsides of to win that turn with (since losing health means you'll die if you can't absorb it), other than Rogue (Rogue downside generally is inferior cards without the Combo trigger, but that's almost always avoidable to the point it's not generally thought of in that regard).
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Posts: 1,215
TY for responding to every sentence with generic opinions from yourself because you like ignoring discard. I would also like to thank you for terrible dust devil suggestions as well. You wrote so many words, but it just just again, ignoring the issue at hand. You always suggest very poor overload plays though. Then you say that's just the beginning of it, when in fact, discard is just not balanced because it doesn't lose the game on purpose like you would be doing with forked dust devil.
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Posts: 4,278
06/30/2014 02:12 PMPosted by AriseChicken
You always suggest very poor overload plays though.

They are "poor" in your opinion, but not as a result of the Overload mechanic.

You want to say that Discard is "broken", because there is a good deck out there that can mitigate it. But the fact is that almost every single drawback can be played around. It's just whether or not there is a good deck out there that can do so reliably. You're the one ignoring the issue: "Is Discard unique in that players can avoid it's downside?"

The short and simple answer is: "Hell no."

You try to argue: "But it happens every game!" But Overload gets ignored almost every game as well, at least once.

Arcane Golem's downside is also often ignored, both in a similar sense that Overload can be (the mana doesn't get used so it doesn't matter that it's availble) and in the direct sense of simply not adding a mana crystal once they've got 9 or 10.

People have specifically used Coldlight Oracle in Miracle as a counter to Handlock and other late-game control, because it overfills their hand.

That's why it's "just the beginning."


As far as Dust Devil losing games?

Is that reliable? Hell no. But you're stuck in your own version of how to use things. You ignore what other people say and dismiss it as "opinion" without reading or comprehending what they are telling you. You pick on one specific example (not refuting it's existence of course, but simply saying it's "always bad" when in fact it's actually just highly situational) and then proceed to ignore all others.

Screw that.

If you want to stick your head in the sand than that's you're prerogative. It's you're opinion that Discard is not working the way it should, that's fine too, it's you're opinion. But don't try to claim it's the only downside effect that ever gets ignored reliably. Because that is false, and the falsehood of that claim has been demonstrated to you multiple times. If you want to ignore it, that's your own problem.
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Posts: 1
I agree with the topic creator. The condition is to discard card(s). If you don't, the condition is not met. It's like a job requires university education to apply, can I just tell them sorry I never had any education and therefore I can waive the education requirement? Can you tell a store keeper you used up all your money, so now you can "buy" anything without paying any $? NO. I am sure everyone can think of a better example, but that's the point.

If they would make discard cards mandatory, then I don't mind they change "randomly" into "chosen".
Edited by Maystar on 7/18/2014 7:04 AM PDT
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Posts: 61
I regularly draw doomguard and soulfire into my hand before i want to play either of them, which forces me to discard, being prohibited from playing both will lose you games. That in itself is a big drawback to running doomguards and soulfires that isnt the actual discarding, its limiting your choices because theyre both in ur hand, one is essentially a dead card. This happens alot from my experiences and so much so that i had to drop a soulfire in my zoo deck because it was driving me mad the amount of times id draw them both early on and a not be able to use them. Even in my handlock deck i run 1 soulfire because it discards Leeroy all the time. Soulfire is fine. Zoo lock abuses soulfire a little i guess but its just a way of working around a negative draw back, just like you can with a ton of other cards and mechanics like someone else mentioned in the thread. Doomguard is an odd card though because its very linnear in the fact that it only works in a deck where you empty your hand, ie zoo. To get the great value u have to dump ur whole hand, which has a ton of drawbacks in itself. Aoe board clear and removal is everywhere. I can understand the frustration at zoo being able to abuse the mechanic but i dont think its broken, IT IS however yet another damn RNG mechanic which HS has way too many of, thats another issue though and one i really dislike.
Edited by mightychin on 7/18/2014 10:09 AM PDT
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Posts: 4,278
07/18/2014 07:00 AMPosted by Maystar
The condition is to discard card(s). If you don't, the condition is not met.

It's not a condition or a cost, it's an effect, and it's not the only avoidable effect in the game either.
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