Tons of bad spells.
Damn have anyone payed attention to the warlock spells ?
They are pretty damn bad.
Sacrifical pact : Obviously terrible if used on a friendly minion, great if used to kill an enemy minion, but considering the only thing that runs demons is Zoo and thats 6 demons only, useless versus Handlock which might cause bad mulligan.
Corruption:Takes a whole turn, allows the enemy to trade the doomed minion or at least hit you in the face with it.
Mortal coil: A poormans version of wrath and shiv.I dont even run it in my zoo.
Demonfire:Might be good IF there were enough reliable demons, the utility is nice so it can be argued if this card is good or not.
Drain life: Laughably bad, 3 mana for 2 damage, the healing is irrelevant you need the card for removal not to do bad 2 for 1 trades(and mana costy too).
Sense demons: Could be good if demons were relevant, but that is not the case(and probably wont be after Nax too).
Shadow bolt: Arguably decent, for one more mana you have a fireball that does 6 damage but can also go to face, or swipe that will also do 1 more damage and can go to the face.The 4 damage instead of 5 is a huge drawback and it would make sense for it to be 5 considering its limited to minions only.
Hellfire:An aoe that hurts your own board and hero.You want to make a spell powered combo? Too bad your minion dies(even azure drakes).You want to clear the enemy board and go for face? Too bad, your minions might be dead too.
Siphon Soul:Well how i dare one of the best cards in handlock deck and i call it bad? Well its in the handlock deck because there isnt anything better.
Something simple as a Polymorph + Hero power is the same mana cost and card cost but on top of that it silences the minion it kills, and still polymorph isnt played that much.Assasinate costs 1 less(yes it doesnt heal) but its still rarely/never used on higher levels.
Bane of Doom: 2 damage for 5 mana is laugable, the secondary effect triggers only on a kill and its still a random, and on top of that Pit Lord and Doomguard are NOT on the summoning list.
Twisting nether : A complete board wipe is great but costing 8 mana is quit a lot considering the fact it also destroys your own board, this means that you are giving the initative to the enemy during late game turns which can be devistating.
Warlock is probably the only class that has so many bad spells how can you run anything that is not Zoo or Handlock? If its not for the good hero power(that makes those decks viable) the warlock class will be BY FAR the worst in the game.
This is true
This is not
Coil is a great card in handlock, idk about zoo I don't play that. It helps great with the early game that handlock usually just spends tapping, doesn't hurt the giants since it replaces itself. Combos amazing with Thalnos, 2 dmg draw is very useful.
Yup total junk in zoo.
Fine in handlock since it usually kills zoo/aggro as long as there isn't too many shields up. can also hep get lethal.
Usually it is used to help regain board when you don't have it, so it doesn't kill your minions. also those 8 health giants don't care if you raise a little hell.
It is a 6 mana assassinate w/ earthen ring battle cry on the hero. imo many just a tad overcosted (by about 1/2 a mana) But it can't be 5 since that would make it strictly better than assassinate.
As for the others, yea not that great, shadow bolt is ok at 1 in a deck but not ideal. Nether... I have pulled 3 and every time tried it, only good thing about it is the animation. bane oh c'mon that is a joke. I just wish sense demons was good...
I also noticed you did not mention the few good spells they have, other good spells are shadowflame and soulfire.
Well, first of all, the reason it's called "Zoo" in the first place is because it runs almost only minions; even then Mortal Coil is probably the spell that gets splashed in the most. It might be a "poor man's shiv" to you, but the fact it only costs 1 does actually mean a lot.
Point is, if you look at everything from a Zoo perspective only, yeah, you're going to see spells as being bad. Some spells are bad, but a lot of the ones you listed are really quite good:
That out of the way:
Sac. Pact: Really badly designed, but not strictly a bad card as you yourself acknowledged.
Corruption: Could be good with some delaying effect such as Freeze. It costs one. There's more risk, sure, but there's risk also for Naturalize, and it requires less prior investment than Execute.
Mortal Coil: As stated before, it's a good spell.
Demonfire and Sense Demons: Will get better with more demons, the lack of good demons isn't their fault.
Drain Life: Is overcosted and thus bad. If it's being used it's because there's not enough face-damage spell cards or they are particularly concerned about life-loss, but it's still inefficient.
Shadowbolt: Fireball is a-typical (as is Soul Fire). The norm for damage is 1+ 1/mana for a single-target spell. As such, Shadowbolt is very much average. It's not great, but it's certainly not bad either.
Hellfire: It's funny you mention this but not Shadowflame, which 100% will kill one of your own minions, while Hellfire can easily not do that. In any event, 3 damage AoE (and that hits the face) is fantastic, so you're pretty much crazy to scoff at it simply because it has a potential down-side. Again, I assume you're looking at things through a Zoo perspective, which is based on playing out your hand onto the field, so of course you're going to scoff at Hellfire, but it's easily one of the best AoE spells in the game, not even just the class, the game.
Siphon Soul: The only reason Assassinate doesn't see more play than it does currently is because of the focus on Miracle Rogue which relies on cost 3 or less spells being spammed in the presence of an Auctioneer. Polymorph+Hero Power also means they are dedicating their Hero Power to finishing off a sheep (as opposed to something more useful that turn), and it doesn't heal the Mage. Siphon Soul is good, and not just because of a supposed lack of alternatives (because Warlock has the most offensive "destruction" effects of any class).
Bane of Doom: Shouldn't have Blood Imp, and/or probably should have Pit Lord in it's pool. It should not have Doomguard though (much as that would make sense lore-wise). Maybe if Void Caller or other new Demons get added into the mix it'll bump the return-rate above 50/50 for the extra mana, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Twisting Nether: I agree with you here. Mostly. On the other hand, if you're using it, it's because you've already lost board control, and if they've got a small hand, they might not be able to make good use of that initiative. It's still a pretty poor card in the current meta, due to the speed of the meta.
There's a reason the two best Warlock decks use almost exclusively neutral cards. Most of ours are objectively terrible.
Mortal Coil is great though, especially when combined with things like Elven Archer. It's very useful for getting rid of the damaged golem or a divine shielded minion who has just lost his shield.
actually I played shadowflame against a mage, he had spellbender, the spellbender exploded and did 2 dmg to all of his minions, killing his board. My minion was fine.
Well few things : I didnt say everything from a Zoos perspective, i was/am pissed off because i was trying to play a midrange warlock and god stuff like hellfire just shines how bad it is there.Getting your Tazdingo down to 3/2 is just horrible.When you try to play midrange warlock you just feel how bad the spell support is.
I was thinking about talking about shadowflame but i figured while it requires a sacrifice the potential AoE damage is quite high and it doesnt weaken your existing board(aside from the sacrifice).
I still think Mortal Coil is a poor man version of Wrath and Shiv (it can be argued about Shiv i guess) and i do know the 1 mana cost difference is a factor but the thing is Wraths and Shivs 2 mana cost are what i call a false weakness, Shivs 2 mana cost alone might look a lot but if you look at the rogues deck build(Miracle-cycling) and the overall low mana cost of all cards its becomes pretty irrelevant, for druid stuff like wild growth also nullifies the higher mana cost because they are ahead on the mana curve.
While shadowbolt might be average based on its damage the limit it has is a huge hit on the utility of the spell.
I didnt mention the good spells because its a list of the bad ones(at lest the bad ones imo).
Edited by Prodan on 7/2/2014 9:28 PM PDT
Lol, sure, but, I mean, Counterspell would also "save" your minion, but you understand the point I was making.
I'm confused, are you saying that Warlock spells "should" be weaker than other class spells because of Life-Tap? Or...
Because I'm pretty sure other classes have plenty of card draw.
The existence of Life-Tap should not make our class cards bad, let alone in the numbers that they are. Some of them have potential (Corruption mostly, and possibly Twisting Nether if late-game really takes off), and while I disagree with Prodan's list in parts that's still a lot of dross, and that's just the spells. Many other cards are undertuned (Blood Imp, Pit Lord, Felguard, Summoning Portal).
Some effects can help salvage some (Void Caller gives life to Pit Lord and Felguard as picks, but it would still be bad to actually play them) but it's not so great.
Shadowbolt feels underbudget compared to fireball since it cant hit the face, and drain life should be 2 mana or something, sac pact is laughable, siphon soul only annoys me that i cant play faceless the same turn i use it, twisting nether should silence then destroy all since they are being sucked into a blackhole, bane of doom i have no idea how to fix, and corruption can be ok in some situations.
Now even though this is supposed to be about the spells, i'd like to mention some minions: succubus i find bad but is good in rush or zoo, pit lord should be like a 4/6 or 4/7 with taunt then maybe it'd be good, felguard is actually good if you use it right, you don't use it as a 1 turn earlier shieldmasta, you use it turn 7+ when losing the mana crystal isn't as big a deal, blood imp i think is ok
Now where is our soulstone? Should work the way ancestral healing does where is it.
Also can be used to eat an Imp Master imp or a worthless imp or finish off something that was power overwhelmed for +5 life. And sometimes it just makes sense to eat your own demon with one health left rather than let a mage ping it away.
Simply not worth the card for few situational uses.
Considering you need to remove a demon to use it it could easly heal at least as much as healing touch.
What the power of Zoo teaches us about the game is it's better to have stuff that's almost always at least playable as opposed to stuff that's useless in some cases and awesome in others. Most of the bad Warlock cards aren't so much bad as extremely situational. Take Twisting Nether as an example. The chance of having it when the enemy has several strong minions AND you have enough mana to play it AND it will hurt him more than you is very low. Void Terror is another example. Hitting face with a 3/2 that has Power Overwhelming on it and then eating it with a Void Terror is an extremely strong play...provided that all this happens AND your opponent doesn't have a hard removal and a silence. Otherwise you just cost yourself 2 lifetaps in card advantage.
well, we still got
Power overwhelming which is great with Void Terror, Leeroy+faceless, shadowflame
Shawdowflame which is an amazing spell despite the sacrifice. It allows you to tailor your AoE damage. Works well with PO, Leeeroy, Ancient Watcher
if warlock didn't have these two, it would be terrible. But we can still pull amazing stuff with it.
Warlock has bad spells (as every class) but great spells too.
Soulfire (Tempo!), Mortal Coil (Cheap Shiv/Wrath), Hellfire (Second strongest AOE if you have no minions on the field, synergy with Molten Giant), Shadowflame (Leeroy + Shadowflame = 6 Damage to your opponent face and kill everything he has) Power Overwhelming (Just like Cold Blood, 1 Mana, 4 Damage, has the advantage that you can kill something with it and then silence your own minion to deny his death).
No reason to complain about.
Edited by BeFoRe on 7/4/2014 1:54 AM PDT
Mortal coil is ot a cheap shiv/wrath its a situational shiv or wrath(doesnt even cover both effects of wrath).
Hellfire is terrible, an aoe that damages your own board is bad, it cant be used offensivly, which limits its usage making it situational.It also damages your hero, keeping in mind you already take a ton of damage by your hero power.
Shadowflame again requires 2 cards to use and one of them must be a minion that has enough damage on top of that.Assuming on average a 4 attack minion costs 4 mana thats 8 mana and 2 cards for a flamestrike.An argument can be made that the potential aoe damage can be higher and its a valid point.
Even tho i havent mentioned Poweroverwhelming its not that great too the scenario you described requires 3 cards one of which is already on the field to kill a single minion.The only credit i can give poweroverwhelming is Leeroy + POWA + Faceless combo which is pretty sick but most classes can pull a similar one so its not special.
As Zoid said sometimes-great cards are bad in general, you want consistentcy in a card game because you already have the randomness of the draw.
Situational shiv? When you wan't to kill your opponents minions, shiv is as situational as mortail coil, because it does only one damage and in this situation, Mortail Coil is just better because it's cheaper. The Possibility to Shiv -> Face isn't a big deal.
Hellfire isn't terrible, you don't play Handlock, do you? Did you ever saw Hellfire into Double Molten Giant?
Shadowflame can be combinded with Ancient Watcher (6 Mana) / Leeroy (+ 6 Damage to face) / Poweroverwhelming a token, go face and shadowflame is also a possibility...
Poweroverwhelming + Silence are 2 cards, the Minion you combine with Poweroverwhelming is pretty irrelevant. It's as good as Cold Blood to finish your opponent, nobody would say, that Cold Blood is a bad spell and can be combined with Shadowflame.
Warlock has many spells, that are in combination with something else very very strong. I don't see the problem. Savagery, Bite, Far Sight, Repentance, Frost Shock, Blessed Champion, Totemic Might, Mass Dispel are MUCH worse than the spells from your list.
Edited by BeFoRe on 7/4/2014 4:54 AM PDT
Seing what you just said about Shiv you have no idea why its used, shiv is used just to cycle the rogues deck so he gets to his kill combo faster.You often see even on tournaments rogues blowing their shiv to the face when they have spare mana just to cycle faster.
I do play handlock an Hellfire is terrible in anything that isnt hellfire, that is the point of the thread the class cards allow only 2 styles of play and both of those styles are possible mostly because of the hero power not because of the class cards.
Shadowflame i already made an argument why its bad you chose to just ignore it.Even with watcher is 4 aoe damage for 6 mana and 2 cards, flame strike would do 4 damage for 7 mana but its 1 card only.Using leeroy is 8 mana for 6 damage and 2 cards which is better but the odds of having the single copy of leeroy arent that huge, also keep in mind most warlocks use Leeroy as their core burst with PO+Faceless.
The minion you used with poweroverwhelming is not irrelvant because it must of survived the field.Cold blood can use the same function as a PO yes, but it wont kill your minion, it can easly be used to hit face then conceal the minion so you can hit with it one more time, also its not rare that coldblood is used to an auctioneer to get the cycling going while still using the damage advantage.
The problem is that even tho other classes have bad spells too, they have other spell or minion support to make up for it, Warlocks do not.Warlocks just have a bunch of bad demons and a bunch of bad spells.We are just lucky there is shinanigans like Giants and Zoo that are able to keep the class as one of the strongest.
I know that Rogues uses it to cycle to their Decks but Warlocks don't need this functionality (Hero Power), so Mortal Coil is a better Shiv for them, because they want many cards @ turn 4, Hero Power is +1 card, Shiv would be just 1 for 1 = useless for Warlock(I say Warlock, not Handlock, because every class should play cards, which are good with their hero power, injured blademaster for priest as an example, so Twillight Drake / Mountain Giants are good for Warlock).
Flamestrike is only one card in this example but you could have played the Watcher in a different round before and Shadowflame when you need to, for Flamestrike you need to wait till you have 7 mana and everybody knows, that Mage could Flamestrike @ turn 7, so they prepare for it. For Shadowflame they often don't. Flamestrike is always 4 Damage, you can choose what you need to Shadowflame or combine it with PO to kill everything the opponent has. Flamestrike is pretty useless, when your opponent has 5+ Health Minions. Shadowflame has more options so it's as good as Flamestrike I would say.
So Cold Blood is better than PO because it can be combined with Conceal and Auctioneer, but Shadowflame isn't better because you need other cards for it to be good?... We compare one card against each other or we compare every possibile combination, choose one!
I wouldn't say that Demons are bad, but they need to fit in the rest of the Deck. A Flame Imp is the strongest 1 Mana Minion, a Doomguard the Strongest 5 Mana Minon and Dread Infernal is a solid 6-Mana-Body with an interesting effect. Void Walker isn't that bad either.
Edited by BeFoRe on 7/4/2014 7:55 AM PDT
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