Tons of bad spells.

Posts: 3,300
07/03/2014 11:27 PMPosted by Polite
well, we still got
Power overwhelming which is great with Void Terror, Leeroy+faceless, shadowflame
Shawdowflame which is an amazing spell despite the sacrifice. It allows you to tailor your AoE damage. Works well with PO, Leeeroy, Ancient Watcher

if warlock didn't have these two, it would be terrible. But we can still pull amazing stuff with it.


No offense intended, but if you think that Void Terror + Power Overwhelming is a great combo, you probably aren't very good at this game. It's insane when it works but it's very easily countered and costs you 3 cards, plus it lets your opponent know that you only have at most one more Power Overwhelming, which gives him an idea of how much you can burst.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,565
07/02/2014 09:27 PMPosted by Prodan
Well few things : I didnt say everything from a Zoos perspective, i was/am pissed off because i was trying to play a midrange warlock and god stuff like hellfire just shines how bad it is there.Getting your Tazdingo down to 3/2 is just horrible.When you try to play midrange warlock you just feel how bad the spell support is.


Getting your Tazdingo down to 3/2 is far from horrible, particularly since you're basically playing what would be a 6-mana spell for 4 mana in exchange for some damage on your taunt and Hero. Or you need to work on how/when you play things.

I can't imagine how you think that Mortal Coil would be bad for a midrange deck though. It's great for finishing off things that your minions, or Hellfire just don't quite kill. Or Shadowbolt, if playing more control oriented midrange.

Since midrange Warlock decks aren't exactly standardized or anything, would you be willing to post what you were trying to use? Or your prototype deck? Some spells are situational, as mentioned before, and some require some other conditions and the like. I'd be curious what you tried out in addition to Hellfire. Whether you played more aggressive or more control, etc.

*shrug*

Not anything you need to share if you don't want to though.

07/04/2014 11:58 AMPosted by Zoid
plus it lets your opponent know that you only have at most one more Power Overwhelming, which gives him an idea of how much you can burst.


That's more an issue with the Meta and PO being specific to that. Besides, Leeroy PO Faceless only uses the one PO anyway, so it doesn't necessarily provide that much relevant information.
Edited by Tsenzei on 7/4/2014 1:09 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 609
http://i57.tinypic.com/2l87z1z.png
This is the last variation basicly from 5-6 hours ago.(I dont have Leeroy so imagine arcane golem is that)

As you can see im trying to keep the Demon gimmick and just trying to imagine how a midrange Voidcaller deck should/will look like
.
I tried 2 shadowflames, they were too heavy.
2 PO also, quite heavy.
I have considered removing 1/2 sense demons and maybe replacing the Doomguards with Commanders.
The voidterror(2 werent working out great) is mostly used to recycle damaged minions(usually Voidwalker/Flame imp).
The soul syphons are heavy versus aggro but its impossible to win to control without them(even with them its damn near impossible).
Drain life is there for the sake of some extra removal.
Even the damned hellfire is problematic because it kills the Drake and damages you even more too.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,565
I've tried some similar "imagining" when it comes to thinking about how Void Caller might impact deck-building. My conclusion is that without the actual Void Caller and other new cards it doesn't quite work out, and as a result, neither does Void Terror and many associated Demons. The effect simply cannot be replaced, and without it, those picks just don't make sense.

With this deck, I think I probably wouldn't bother with Shadowflame at all. Best use for it is probably on your Azure Drake to do 5 damage to everything or combo with PO, and, obviously, that's quite "heavy" as you would put it.

Particularly with Shadowflame, Siphon Soul and PO, I agree with taking DG out for AC, or something along those lines.

My own Demon build (which does a lot better than I first thought it would, albeit I don't use it in Ranked), not accounting for Void Caller or other future cards, keep in mind I personally have a much more Control oriented playstyle, so it's very different from yours:

2x Soulfire
2x Mortal Coil
2x Voidwalker
2x Demonfire
2x Amani Berserker
2x Faerie Dragon
2x Shadow Bolt
2x Earth Ring Farseer
2x Hellfire
2x Pit Lord
2x Sen'Jin Sheildmasta
2x Bane of Doom
2x Siphon Soul
2x Argent Commander
1x Ragnaros the Firelord
1x Deathwing

Note, I do not consider this a "good" deck, but it isn't strictly "bad" either, and there are a LOT of cards that I put in there because it would be "fun." Primarily Bane of Doom, Deathwing, and Pit Lord. Also, I too do not have a Leeroy, so Ragnaros is my replacement (it makes sense in my mind, stop judging me). If I had Leeroy I'd replace Rag obviously and probably put Faceless in place of Deathwing.

For me, what I've experienced is this:

1. It's really nice to have 3+ AoE. Deathwing doesn't do as nice a job as I'd like as a third AoE, though it can win games sometimes and people generally don't expect it. None the less, I think in my "serious" decks I'll stick with 2x Hellfire and 1-2x Shadowflame, provided they aren't rush decks (in which case I'll only use 1-2 Hellfire, which can be nice as a finisher at least), or Zoo (where I just won't use any).

2. I think Demonfire, Shadow Bolt, Mortal Coil, and Siphon Soul is more than enough targeted removal. Drain Life (or bane of Doom) can be useful sometimes, but as has been discussed in this thread, you generally want things that are "always" useful. With AC, Hellfire, and such supplementing it, it's that much less of an issue to include additional removal, and you can safely cut back on others (most commonly Demonfire and Shadow Bolt). From my perspective, the only things Drain Life are good for are to gain life (I'd rather use a Voodoo Doctor) and Spell-based Face damage (which isn't a great decktype currently, but has it's moments).

3. I still really wish they'd remove Blood Imp from the pool on Bane of Doom. I think that would have made it a much better pick.

4. I haven't really felt like Siphon Soul is slacking, even with this more midrange build (compared to Handloc).

5. I miss Azure Drake for making best use of Mortal Coil and Shadowbolt.

From playing with Azure Drake and Hellfire in my Handlock, I can say it can be sometimes annoying, but it's generally not too much of an issue. If I'm using it, it's usually either to slow down Aggro (meaning my Azure Drake is either not out yet or already pretty injured anyway), or it's a finishing blow to more valuable late-game minions/the enemy Hero. I can also say from playing both decks that Earthen Ring can help take the sting out of Hellfire's downside, by healing surviving minions and/or yourself. It can suck to Hellfire after throwing out a Twilight Drake or Tazdingo the previous turn, but a little shamanic love can go a long way to help.

Based on your build, it felt like you were going for a more aggro-intensive bent than I did. The result of this is that I feel like you're a little spell-heavy, and again the Doomguards just don't fit well with the spells you do have. If you ditch the Void Terrors and Doomguards, you can also ditch the Sense Demons, as it won't get you anything consistently important. Demonfire might also become questionable, but you've still got 4 decent buff targets, so it's really dependent on whether you want more minions or not. If playing with a more Aggro focus, more minions seems like the better choice. You could replace them with Owls to help you get past large taunts with your Arcane Golem/Leeroy or AC. Presence of Silence could also mitigate the need for Siphon Soul, and so on.

Again, it makes spells look bad, but I think a large part of it is what you're using them for and how effective you can use them. For my midrange-ish "Demon" deck, the Demonfire can be useful to buff demons, but with my playstyle it can also mean slowing down Aggro, or setting up for Mortal Coil or Bane, etc. So with my deck I feel like it's more valuable.

*shrug*

Sort of how I look at things. I've also toyed a bit with Frost Elementals and Corruption, but I haven't made anything that I think would be worth sharing deck-wise with those.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,011
07/04/2014 03:00 PMPosted by Tsenzei
2x Soulfire
2x Mortal Coil
2x Voidwalker
2x Demonfire
2x Amani Berserker
2x Faerie Dragon
2x Shadow Bolt
2x Earth Ring Farseer
2x Hellfire
2x Pit Lord
2x Sen'Jin Sheildmasta
2x Bane of Doom
2x Siphon Soul
2x Argent Commander
1x Ragnaros the Firelord
1x Deathwing
Looks like midrange demons with a rag and deathwing thrown in to me.

Hellfire is not the best aoe in the game, but it is cheap and by no means a bad one. No you don't use it offensively but handlock don't need aoe offensively since you control the board and kill off big threats. dmg to your board is irrelevant anyway since the big minions are so bulky, and the dmg to hero can even help you at times.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,203
Soulfire is an amazing removal card that wins a lot of games for Warlocks outright.

Soul Siphon is a great late game removal card, if expensive.

Sacrificial Pact is amazing used at the right time.

Shadowflame is ridiculously good, basically a complete table flip card.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,300
07/05/2014 10:39 AMPosted by Died


Sacrificial Pact is amazing used at the right time.

[/quote]

You mean when an enemy Warlock plays Jaraxxus? That's the only time it's amazing.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,565
07/05/2014 01:15 PMPosted by Zoid
You mean when an enemy Warlock plays Jaraxxus? That's the only time it's amazing.


That's not strictly true. It's also amazing against Doomguard, Dread Infernal, Illidan, Pit Lord, Flame Imp, Succubus...

When it works as an offensive spell, it is incredibly powerful, though I grant that Worthless Imps may not qualify as "amazing use" targets (it's still a zero-cost heal and minor removal, well above the curve even in that scenario).

The reason people don't call for nerfs is because people don't use enough demons to justify it's inclusion most of the time, even when they play against "50%+ Zoo" as some have stated. And it's an incredibly poor card if you use it on your own minions (with exceptions that are generally rarer than finding an offensive use).

If there were more and more commonly used Neutral Demons, Sac. Pact would become an "amazing" and oft complained about card for it's power... and that's the main reason I hate it's design. As it is, it limits the design space of the game.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]