Eaglehorn nerf and refund.

Posts: 3,567
07/23/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Hey guys! The change to the Eaglehorn Bow was an intentional adjustment, and not a bug fix. We like that the Eaglehorn combos with your own traps, but we aren’t as happy that it also punishes your opponent’s secrets. Not to mention, there’s a possibility that secret play will become more prominent as more Naxx cards are released. All in all, the timing felt right to adjust the way the bow works.

That said, in this case we will be offering a full cost disenchant for the Eaglehorn Bow, but it's been delayed a bit. I don't have a precise ETA at the moment, but for now, hold onto your bows and don't do anything hasty.


Will Secretkeeper also be receiving similar functionality/nerfs?
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So since there are healing neutral minions, why wasn't Northshire cleric nerfed for only friendlies.

Why don't murlocs only affect friendly murlocs. They are not on the same team and should not buff enemy murlocs.

To say that this "punishes" your opponent for playing secrets has got to be one of the stupidest reasons you could come up with as an explanation. Here's why. The game is about punishing your opponent. If a card just so happens to benefit you while punishing the opponent at the same time, all the better. But this card was still not an extraordinary card to begin with, so nerfing this and not other cards that proc off of enemy things is just silly, especially with only 3 heroes having secrets.

For example, Warrior.
Frothing Berserker. When ever a minion takes damage, gain +1 attack. Both sides have 3 minions on the board, I drop a Wild Pyromancer and cast Whirlwind. Frothing Berserker gains +6 attack from the Whirlwind, then another +6 attack from the Wild Pyromancer. Assuming that is everything has at least 2 hp on the board. With such a simple combo, that is now worth 4 durability on Eaglehorn Bow. Since a lot of heroes do not have secrets, and those that do rarely use majority they have (because they suck), you kind of rely on your own secrets more to begin with to add durability, but at the same time, it's up to your opponent to set those secrets off, which sometimes can be avoided for several turns, leaving you either just using up that last durability or sitting there with a weapon until they set off a secret.

So just wow, the explanation for the nerf, utter stupidity since there are far more pressing issues in the game than nerfing a card of the hero ranked 2nd worst. Why hasn't the massive card draw of Miracle Rogue been addressed like Hunter's "massive" card draw was. Even though the difference in card draw is about 5+ cards in favour of Miracle Rogue.

Can the person who made this decision come forth so the few Hunter users that are left can flog him?
Edited by Slipstream on 7/23/2014 7:36 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Daxxarri
That said, in this case we will be offering a full cost disenchant for the Eaglehorn Bow, but it's been delayed a bit. I don't have a precise ETA at the moment, but for now, hold onto your bows and don't do anything hasty.


Woo Daxx, this is good news to hear, thank you!

See, it's reasons like this that I rarely hit that "Mass Disenchant" button XD
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SWEET, i got 2 golden eagle horn bow, and 3 regular ones...
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07/23/2014 07:02 PMPosted by Polaris
07/23/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Hey guys! The change to the Eaglehorn Bow was an intentional adjustment, and not a bug fix. We like that the Eaglehorn combos with your own traps, but we aren’t as happy that it also punishes your opponent’s secrets. Not to mention, there’s a possibility that secret play will become more prominent as more Naxx cards are released. All in all, the timing felt right to adjust the way the bow works.


So the nerf to Eaglehorn is supposed to improve secrets? Hmmm. Not for Hunter!


Well, it can be when Hunters are playing Secrets against Eaglehorn Bows.
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07/23/2014 06:26 PMPosted by Verdash
Thanks for the explanation. I can't say I agree with it (yeah yeah, I know, like my opinion matters +P ), especially with cards like Secretkeeper punishing your opponents secrets, or even other mechanics like Northshire/Frothing punishing you healing/damaging minions, but /shrug.


Hold on a sec. I'm not setting a precedent here for making a case for future buffs, or arguing against nerfs or what have you.

These things aren't absolutes; they're not binary. It's okay for some effects to punish an opponent's actions. We didn't want this weapon to fit into that role.

07/23/2014 06:16 PMPosted by Matt
Blizzard stated in the past that no further cards would be changed unless absolutely necessary. Are you claiming that a nerf to one of the weakest classes at the moment was absolutely necessary?


And, generally speaking, that maxim holds true: we'll continue to avoid changing cards unless necessary.

This change addressed both an existing concern that we had, and pre-empted a future concern as well. It couldn't be resolved in any other way, thus the change was necessary.
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Are you claiming that a nerf to one of the weakest classes at the moment was absolutely necessary?


Really? Lol. Hunter is still incredibly powerful. Everyone simply abandoned it because UTH got a (MUCH DESERVED) tiny nerf. 4 mana should not give you a near-full counter to your opponent's board and anywhere from 2-7 cards. UTH is still incredibly powerful and it amazes me how people think otherwise.
Edited by Polarthief on 7/23/2014 7:52 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 05:40 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We like that the Eaglehorn combos with your own traps, but we aren’t as happy that it also punishes your opponent’s secrets. Not to mention, there’s a possibility that secret play will become more prominent as more Naxx cards are released.


Thanks fort the update.

This seems like a pretty large policy shift going from "wait and see/only when statistics show a problem" nerfing, to preemptive nerfing based on "possibility". Is this new stance something the community should now anticipate going forward?

As mentioned, Secretkeeper also punishes your opponent for playing secrets. Should we expect another nerf incoming based on this shift in policy?

Edit: It would appear not.

The lack of consistency is a bit disheartening. Not that I'm for (or against) nerfing, but nerfs coming out of left field with no statistical, policy, or community backing gives the game environment a very unstable feeling.
Edited by CrazyMage on 7/23/2014 7:58 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 07:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
07/23/2014 06:26 PMPosted by Verdash
Thanks for the explanation. I can't say I agree with it (yeah yeah, I know, like my opinion matters +P ), especially with cards like Secretkeeper punishing your opponents secrets, or even other mechanics like Northshire/Frothing punishing you healing/damaging minions, but /shrug.


Hold on a sec. I'm not setting a precedent here for making a case for future buffs, or arguing against nerfs or what have you.

These things aren't absolutes; they're not binary. It's okay for some effects to punish an opponent's actions. We didn't want this weapon to fit into that role.

07/23/2014 06:16 PMPosted by Matt
Blizzard stated in the past that no further cards would be changed unless absolutely necessary. Are you claiming that a nerf to one of the weakest classes at the moment was absolutely necessary?


And, generally speaking, that maxim holds true: we'll continue to avoid changing cards unless necessary.

This change addressed both an existing concern that we had, and pre-empted a future concern as well. It couldn't be resolved in any other way, thus the change was necessary.


What was this existing concern? Miracle Rogues massive card draw is clearly not a concern then. Good thing you guys have your priorities straight. R.I.P. Hunters, you will be missed.
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07/23/2014 07:31 PMPosted by Tsenzei
Will Secretkeeper also be receiving similar functionality/nerfs?


This is actually a fairly good point, though Secretkeeper is significantly weaker than Eaglehorn Bow and other minions that work similarly (Undertaker, for example).
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07/23/2014 07:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
This change addressed both an existing concern that we had, and pre-empted a future concern as well. It couldn't be resolved in any other way, thus the change was necessary.


Are Hunters going to get any love in future as you seem to be trying to kill off both beast deck based Hunters and Secret based Hunters, and Secret based Hunters were hardly OP.

Why was the decision to nerf the Eaglebow and not let the meta sort it out by encouraging people to at least carry 1 Ooze or a Harrison Jones? Hunters seem to have to carry so many situational cards now to play effectively compared to other classes, that this change just feels like a kick in the teeth.
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07/23/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Polarthief
Are you claiming that a nerf to one of the weakest classes at the moment was absolutely necessary?


Really? Lol. Hunter is still incredibly powerful. Everyone simply abandoned it because UTH got a (MUCH DESERVED) tiny nerf. 4 mana should not give you a near-full counter to your opponent's board and anywhere from 2-7 cards. UTH is still incredibly powerful and it amazes me how people think otherwise.


You did read what you just wrote right? 2-7 cards? 7 cards seriously? I guess you don't know how the card even works. 2-3 is the usual, any more and you're probably losing and in desperate need of cards. It's max a max of 6, and if you max your board, you have only 1/1's, so you would have to sac one play a wolf, now at 6 mana, continue to attack with the other 5 to remove his probable taunts since you let him get 7 minions on the board, and taunts usually have high hp, so you better hope you drew a Hunter's Mark or 2, and in the end all you've done is drawn cards, killed a few minions and at best you have a buzzard and wolf left on the board, both with 1 hp and easily picked off. This does not give tempo, but it's there to somewhat equalize it, since Hunter's DO NOT HAVE AN AOE SPELL.

Priest - Wild Pryomancer + PW:S + Circle of Healing, - 3 mana, 2 damage across the board
- Holy Nova, plus if you have Wild Pyromancer out and a Northshire Cleric and any other minions, you're drawing cards while healing your minions and dealing damage to enemy minions.

Paladin - Consecrate
- Equality + Wild Pyromancer

Mage - Do I even need to write them

Druid - Swipe (annihilates Hunter's too)

Shaman - Lightning Storm, really nasty even if it has overload, because that kind of makes it all the nastier
- Feral Spirit - just throwing this out here because compared to UTH, well, it's a lot better. You need 6 hounds to take out the 2 TAUNTs a shaman can get for the same price and they can survive a hell of a lot more than a little hound

Warrior - Whirlwind + Wild Pyromancer + Frothing Berserker + armorsmith

Rogue - Fan of Knives, Blade Flurry

Warlock - Hellfire, Shadowflame

Yep, I guess no other Hero has a 4 or lower board wipe. I guess Hunter, which has to use cards together to get the same effect as other heroes needs more nerfs. Also, if a class is not being used and stats show they have low win rates, could it be possible it is not being used because of low win rates? Guess you missed the memo on that one.

-edit-

Oh and let's add in the fact now that 2 removal spells hunter's have are random based, and considering the new naxx cards are deathrattle heavy, a nerf to hunter at this point in time is just retarded. Yes, let's give hunters more of a challenge by nerfing them then making their removal scary to use because they don't get to control anything. Opponents choose when to set off secrets effectively making secrets less effective and spells that choose random targets are already pretty weak and could backfire based on what is hit.
Edited by Slipstream on 7/23/2014 8:11 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,366
ITT: we get a nice answer from a blue about the state of things, and people start making stupid strawmen to get in their face.

Eaglehorn Bow gets nerfed
"omg get ur priooties straight blizzard miracle and zoo beat me every time why r you nerfing the worst class in rakned??????"

One of these issues is a conflict with mechanics, the other is FOTM QQ that has existing counterdecks but no one who will swallow their pride and play them. Naxx also just got released, and we haven't gotten every card yet. Naxx is the reason they haven't nerfed any decks.
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07/23/2014 07:51 PMPosted by CrazyMage
As mentioned, Secretkeeper also punishes your opponent for playing secrets. Should we expect another nerf incoming based on this shift in policy?

I don't think they will, because of how different the two cards are, even though they both "punish" the opponent for playing secrets.

Eaglehorn Bow is a weapon, which means that not only can it deal damage the turn it is played, there are very few cards that can really counter it. Secretkeeper, on the other hand, can't attack the turn it comes in, needs a bit of time to warm up, and most importantly, is vulnerable to silence/anything that can remove a minion.
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07/23/2014 07:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
07/23/2014 06:26 PMPosted by Verdash
Thanks for the explanation. I can't say I agree with it (yeah yeah, I know, like my opinion matters +P ), especially with cards like Secretkeeper punishing your opponents secrets, or even other mechanics like Northshire/Frothing punishing you healing/damaging minions, but /shrug.


Hold on a sec. I'm not setting a precedent here for making a case for future buffs, or arguing against nerfs or what have you.

These things aren't absolutes; they're not binary. It's okay for some effects to punish an opponent's actions. We didn't want this weapon to fit into that role.

07/23/2014 06:16 PMPosted by Matt
Blizzard stated in the past that no further cards would be changed unless absolutely necessary. Are you claiming that a nerf to one of the weakest classes at the moment was absolutely necessary?


And, generally speaking, that maxim holds true: we'll continue to avoid changing cards unless necessary.

This change addressed both an existing concern that we had, and pre-empted a future concern as well. It couldn't be resolved in any other way, thus the change was necessary.


You are setting a precedent though. You are proving to the players that you are willing to arbitrarily nerf things that DO NOT NEED NERFS and yet preserve things that clearly do.

You decided to Nerf Eaglehorn Bow before there was ever a problem and lets be honest the problem that you are attempting to fix IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. People don't play a lot of secrets because generally speaking they are bad. Eaglehorn Bow by virtue of working with secrets and punishing opponents secrets (mildly) is what made it a good card. Now Eaglehorn Bow is a mediocre card.
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Posts: 36
07/23/2014 08:09 PMPosted by JackD
Naxx is the reason they haven't nerfed any decks.


Hunter is the only class to be nerfed twice in a row and the only class since release to have card changes.
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07/23/2014 08:18 PMPosted by RamboJesus
You are proving to the players that you are willing to arbitrarily nerf things that DO NOT NEED NERFS and yet preserve things that clearly do.


He said it was necessary and it obviously wasn't made arbitrarily.

Just another case where the player thinks he knows better than the dev team that made the game... quite naive attitude.
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Posts: 2,443
Absolute, definitive proof right here: no one whines and cries like Huntards. All kidding aside, it's nothing short of astonishing.

Then again, that's probably what makes curb-stomping a Huntard so very, very sweet.
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Posts: 10,578
07/23/2014 08:25 PMPosted by TheDukester
Absolute, definitive proof right here: no one whines and cries like Huntards. All kidding aside, it's nothing short of astonishing.

Then again, that's probably what makes curb-stomping a Huntard so very, very sweet.


Still mad about when hunters stomped you in I see. lol sad
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