Stealth

Posts: 542
From watching streamers play rogue and theory crafting, sense i don't have a beta invite yet, i feel that stealth is much weaker than other abilities of its nature, such as divine shield. If you where to break it down divine shield trades better in all aspects than stealth. Stealth can't be targeted by minions or spells the only advantage, but this means u have the advantage of sitting there, which makes no sense in a fast paced play of a rogue. Divine shield is much more aggressive allowing you ro take an AOE spell which stealth can not avoid, also allowing you to trade a free card if targeted by a spell and perhaps kill a free minion or at least damage it freely.

I suggest one of the following:
>That stealth gives your minion first strike along with its prior ability and removes after attack
>The above suggestion plus the following: and at the start of your turn stealth returns to stealth targets. "So you can attack with stealth, have stealth gone while enemy's turn is up to allow response and it comes back on your next turn."
>That stealth gives your minion first strike forever as a replacement of what it currently does.

Hope this is the right spot to post this suggestion to balance, i only hope i made a good argument as i do not actually play the game and as such limited.

Comments would be nice, thanks!
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Posts: 309
Hi!

When we look at Rogue specific cards that have something to do with Stealth we get four cards. Break it down now!

Edwin VanCleef: 2/2 that gets buffed by +2/+2 for every card you played before him and Stealth. This is a guy that you expecially want to stick around for the next turn and not be targeted by direct removal such as Hex. It also protects it from Silences. Stealth minions that are 4 health or above are really hard to remove with AoE damage. He needs the Stealth and it works well for him.

Patient Assassin: 1/1 Stealth that kills any target it damages. As Rogues don't really have any Health buffs he is pretty much one time use. His name already suggests that it's something that likes to wait around for the correct moment. Sadly 1 damage AoE isn't that uncommon so he counterable, but have him waiting on the board and the enemy can't play his Giant as you can stab stab him with the Patient Assassin.

Concel: Actually is one turn Stealth for your whole board. Really good at keeping things alive for one turn and racking up board presence. Best used right before you are going to end your turn so you can still Attack first with your minions and then make them untargetable for one turn. Really awesome card.

Master of Disguise: Her Stealth is not really ment for Minions that are going to break it at all. Certainly best example would be Gadgezan Auctioneer that lets you draw spells every time you cast a spell. Now the Auctioneer is pretty much safe and enemy needs to use valuable AoE cards to get rid of him. In a recent patch the MoD got price increase so some think that she is a bit too situational now when she costs 4. Good for +x Spell Damage Minions too. Turn 3 Dalaran Mage (2/4 with +1 Spell Power) and turn 4 Master of Disguise.

In general Stealth is something that you use to keep your minion safe for the next turn. It's alot better than Divine Shield against board removal as it can't be targeted at all and Divine Shield doesn't help at all against cards that transform or destroy the card. Stealth is also pretty much a free skill for a card to have. For example Worgen Infiltrator is 2/1 for 1 mana while Argent Squire is 1/1 for the same price. Other comparison is 3 cost Minions Scarlet Crusader and Jungle Panther. Scarlet Crusader is 3/1 and Jungle Panther is 4/2. Scarlet can be killed by 2 x 1/1 minions while JP most likely will get one good attack in before getting killed.
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Posts: 254
Stealth definitely needs some sort of buff.

I understand AoE hitting it, but Random targetted spells like Knife juggler, Ragnaros, Multi Shot shouldn't be able to hit. Those spells/abilties TECHNICALLY still need to be able to SEE the target to aim at them and shoot.

Where as AoE is jus AoE.

That needs to be changed ASAP so that only TRUE AoE can hit stealth.

Also, I agree with the first strike, I literally thought that's how it would work, because it seems just so...right. That's how stealth is suppose to work! lol..they can't see the minion coming in b/c stealth, they shouldn't be able to react and attack.

I disagree with applying it everyturn. Maybe after 2-3 turns it can reapply, but minions with DS don't get it back after X number of turns, I think it would be cool if stealth came back, but that just seems too much.

Just fix the Random targetting bug, and give them not first strike, b/c even with first strike if they don't kill the guy he still can attack back, give them an ability called Ambush or something. Ambush meaning they come in stealthed, and the first attack made from stealth makes them immune to counter attacks.
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Posts: 1,084
At least AE Damage doesn't break stealth.
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Posts: 24
I can tell you right now, on my warlock deck I hate stealth, and think it is much better devine shield. i can doe AE damage or plunk 1 damage to drop the shield and roflroll shield...stealth there is nothing I can do but board wipe. mages dont care about shield either, use your 1 point damage to drop it then just kill it with your minions.

Rogue decks that are strong right now don't have a ton of minions in it, but stealth is not terrible...
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Posts: 254
I can tell you right now, on my warlock deck I hate stealth, and think it is much better devine shield. i can doe AE damage or plunk 1 damage to drop the shield and roflroll shield...stealth there is nothing I can do but board wipe. mages dont care about shield either, use your 1 point damage to drop it then just kill it with your minions.

Rogue decks that are strong right now don't have a ton of minions in it, but stealth is not terrible...


Against Warlocks it isn't as weak, but there are plenty other classes/cards it's weak against that it shouldn't be.

We don't always get queued up against warlocks ;)
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Posts: 596
Typoko has already gone into detail about how stealth is actually good in it's own right. I will repeat about how it is still effective against other class' targeted removals. Divine shield can still be removed or silenced. The shield can also just be pinged with a weak 1/1 minion and removed. You cannot do that with a stealthed minion.

An ability doesn't need to be effective against everything. Being able to have charge built into stealth is also a bit much. First strike also seems like it will have some balancing issues. Every ability has to have it's weak points, and AoE is the main weak point of Stealth.

It also doesn't make sense to have a "charge". When you are stealthed it means you are hiding to bide your time to find the best time to strike, or just hiding to hide. You are not meant to go into the fight like Leroy Jenkins or a Warrior.
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Posts: 1,084
Going off on another type of stealth. Conceal used at the right time can completely turn a game around for you if you're behind. I don't know how many matches I've won because the 3 minions with 1 health all stealth for the next turn couldn't be picked off by minions or single target spells.
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Posts: 542
Stealth definitely needs some sort of buff.

I understand AoE hitting it, but Random targetted spells like Knife juggler, Ragnaros, Multi Shot shouldn't be able to hit. Those spells/abilties TECHNICALLY still need to be able to SEE the target to aim at them and shoot.

Where as AoE is jus AoE.

That needs to be changed ASAP so that only TRUE AoE can hit stealth.

Also, I agree with the first strike, I literally thought that's how it would work, because it seems just so...right. That's how stealth is suppose to work! lol..they can't see the minion coming in b/c stealth, they shouldn't be able to react and attack.

I disagree with applying it everyturn. Maybe after 2-3 turns it can reapply, but minions with DS don't get it back after X number of turns, I think it would be cool if stealth came back, but that just seems too much.

Just fix the Random targetting bug, and give them not first strike, b/c even with first strike if they don't kill the guy he still can attack back, give them an ability called Ambush or something. Ambush meaning they come in stealthed, and the first attack made from stealth makes them immune to counter attacks.


Precisely what i was aiming for!
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Posts: 596
08/20/2013 10:41 PMPosted by epic
Precisely what i was aiming for!


It would too powerful like that, especially when conceal is involved. When used correctly stealth can be a very powerful ability. I'm just happy being able to throw out my big minion(s) and making them almost unkillable for the next turn.

No targeted damage spell can hit them, no targeted removal can hit them and they are big enough so most AoEs can't kill them. :P

There is just no need to add all that extra stuff. Yes, it may not make sense how some things can randomly hit them, but as I had to have pointed out to me, not everything in the game should work like it should look like... if that makes sense? Being able to kill a minion with a removal that has divine shield shouldn't "technically" be possible. It needs to be possible though for balancing reasons, unfortunately. The only way they could rebalance stealth like that would be to reduce the damage and/or health of the minions, increase the cost of the cards and/or make it targetable by removals. I personally do not want that.

Stealth is used to add a layer of protection so you have a higher chance of attacking with it, or keep a minion alive that has a nice ability. It isn't meant to get a guaranteed hit with them. That is what charge is for.

Rogues already have plenty of other abilities so they can do immediate damage on their current turn, more is not needed.
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Posts: 1,260
Not saying I agree with him, but saying "First Strike" is not the same as "Charge"

He's saying that when a Rogue strikes out of stealth, the opponent shouldn't be able to return-attack.. at least if they died.

Again, not saying I agree. I'm simply clarifying what he's saying.
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Posts: 596
08/22/2013 02:03 AMPosted by Values
Again, not saying I agree. I'm simply clarifying what he's saying.


Weird, rereading what he said, I do know what first strike meant. I could of sworn his post had something about attacking when summoned.

*shrugs* I'll just blame it on sleepiness, I guess. >.>

Thanks for correcting me though, and my opinion still stays the same as well. :P
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Posts: 254
With the way stealth is now, I just don't see the value in it. It has moments of situational awesomeness of course, but other times it just seems to fall flat and be more of a burden than an aid.

Meh.
Edited by Hemo on 8/22/2013 8:34 AM PDT
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Posts: 255
If stealth seems to be bad to you, it's because you're not using it in the right deck.

What you seem to be missing about stealth is it hard counters all "Destroy", "Transform" and "Silence" cards, all of which still affect something with Divine shield, making Stealth very strong against other rogues, warlocks, shamans, mages and priests. If minions with stealth could dodge damage on the first attack then Stealth would literally just be a better divine shield in every single way.

I've won multiple games using conceal by blowing out with creatures, dropping conceal, and then hitting them straight to the face with everything (none of which they could kill).

Making it so random target spells/abilities can't hit stealth could be ok, it could also make stealth ridiculously overpowered. (Master of disguise: you can now never ever kill my Auctioneer or Captain Greenskin without wasting 3 AOE spells, giving me card advantage anyway)
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Posts: 9
The fact that AE damage doesn't break stealth really makes it as good as it is
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Posts: 898
I think Stealth is fine, just make it so random AOE cards like Multi-Shot don't hit stealthed cards.
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Posts: 254
If stealth seems to be bad to you, it's because you're not using it in the right deck.

What you seem to be missing about stealth is it hard counters all "Destroy", "Transform" and "Silence" cards, all of which still affect something with Divine shield, making Stealth very strong against other rogues, warlocks, shamans, mages and priests. If minions with stealth could dodge damage on the first attack then Stealth would literally just be a better divine shield in every single way.

I've won multiple games using conceal by blowing out with creatures, dropping conceal, and then hitting them straight to the face with everything (none of which they could kill).

Making it so random target spells/abilities can't hit stealth could be ok, it could also make stealth ridiculously overpowered. (Master of disguise: you can now never ever kill my Auctioneer or Captain Greenskin without wasting 3 AOE spells, giving me card advantage anyway)


Disagree.

Stlealth is basically on par with Charge in my mind. At the end of the day, both abilties are about casuing unpreventable damage, Stealth by protecting the minion til it's ready to attack, Charge by letting it attack as it drops. Stealth gives the enemy a heads up that something wicked this way comes and gives them an opprotunity to prepare for it on their turn, by maybe dropping a taunt creature they might not have dropped because they felt safe since your board WAS clear but not has a big ST Tiger sitting on it, or VC. Charge atleast provides you the surprise aspect, they can't see it coming. And if you have an opening for 1 turn to get in quick to deal damage before they can recover, Charge can take advantage of that. Either way, both get the job done. If we could play cards on eachothers turn, I can see stealth being a lot better, but as it is now, it's meh IMO.

Stealth on the minions it shows up on are just blech save for ST Tiger and VC of course. What makes it good is Conceal, and M of D. Most of the creatures that come with stealth on them, there are better picks for the amount of mana you spend on them. Save for ST Tiger, he's stealth creature done right. The others I could give or take.

I guess maybe my beef is with how they over valued when they put stealth on something and made the minion just terrible. And lack of cards that add a perma stealth. Conceal is just until next turn, and MoD is so high cost. Maybe add a low cost card that just gives a minion stealth. Then things would get interesting. As it is now, the minions that have it on it are pretty lame, and to combo something to have perma stealth takes 2 cards. Technically 1 if you're a gambler ;)

Winning multiple games by blowing out with creatures meaning you dropped a lot of small weenie dudes and the enemy just didn't draw any AoE or wasn't running it. Conceal wouldn't stop that, so you'd have either won (probably) most of those games anyway without conceal because they had no board wipe, depends on the minions we're talking about, with things like raid leader or alpha wolf in the mix, then yeah I can see how a hex, or direct damage abiltiy on those guys could set you back, but you can play around that from happening.

If I lose to a board full of small weenie minions it's 90% of the time because I didn't draw AoE removal, not because they had conceal. If that were the case then no other class could ever run a murloc deck, or something similar because they wouldn't have conceal to protect them. It just seems like a really gimmicky win con to me

Conceal seems like a cool card, and in certain situations it'll be an amazing draw when you just need your guys to last that 1 extra turn without being shot down to seal the deal, but is it an amazing draw more than a different card you could run in it's spot?

As for the comment on the gadgetzan and the Captain Greenskin I can say this for all decks, but some decks only need 1 AoE spell to deal with them, any deck would only need 2, and unless you're just not running the right board removal, I don't see how it would ever be 3. Heck, a hunter wouldn't even need an AoE spell to kill them!

Why? Because stealth is broken. Random targetting shouldn't be able to target stealth.
Edited by Hemo on 8/23/2013 9:59 AM PDT
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Posts: 605
Stealth is weaker than most other abilities, that's why the stealth creatures have better stats than most other ability creatures.
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- Hearthstone
Posts: 11,624
Not all abilities are equally strong. That's why they come with different "stat penalties". To put it in context, the 3-drop with Divine Shield is a 3/1 whereas the Jungle Panther is a 3-drop 4/2 with stealth. Basically, for the same cost, you get a much stronger card than stealth. Of course, different abilities still might be better in some situations than others, but for the most part, yes, Stealth is one of the "weaker" mechanics.
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Posts: 270
I would be happy if spells that pick two random targets like multi shot doesn't hit stealth monsters, but have AoE hit them instead.
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