Rogues need to be fixed/nerfed Thread

Hey all, starting this up to hopefully centralize all our complaints about rogues being too strong in the current iteration. While I don't agree with the claims myself, it would be nice to just have one thread for everyone to discuss the topic rather than have multiple threads open for it.

When replying if you could please include specific problems you have with rogue decks rather than saying they're broken, OP, need nerfs, etc...Please list what things they're doing that make you think they're in need of changes, and try to provide feedback as to what you would do to fix the problem if you wore the pants at Blizzard.

If you could also post your decklist as well so we can see what you're running against said rogue decks that would be very helpful too in the way of strategizing with you to defeat us.
Edited by Hemo on 9/3/2013 9:53 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Coin shouldn't combo. Turn 1 ringleader is way too potent to enable by chance.
Reply Quote
Yeah I agree. Making coin not combo would be a pretty great balance change for rogues.
Reply Quote
I think if I was trying to bring the rogue deck down a notch the cards I would look at are Conceal and Edwin VanCleef. A superpowered Edwin VanCleef is close to unbeatable in my experience. With so few ways to interact with it before it kills you, it's very frustrating to lose to. Conceal is super powerful with the combo creatures for the same reason but I think I would nerf VanCleef and then see how that pans out.
Reply Quote
The coin in general needs to go. The advantage of it plus the extra card is beyond to much.

Several rogue spells need a rebalancing.. Combo cards that flip back into the hand should be single use combo. Example. Headcrack once used in combo goes back into hand second use finishes it off.
Reply Quote
Totally agree with SirGiff, rogue has way too many ability on cards in my opinion. Combo mechanic is nice but with the low cost of all his cards I find it painful to play agaisn't a rogue.
Reply Quote
*gets popcorn*

I have come across decks of other classes that have silly combos they can pull off as well. Rogues have always been the combo class....its what they do. Mages are a pretty solid counter to rogues as are shamans.

I think its still too early to start crying OP. Ive beating these so called combo rogue decks with hunters, druids, and a paladin.
Reply Quote
Sap is way too mana efficient. For only 2 mana, the ability to put your opponent behind 1 turn and as much mana as they put into the original round, the card is carelessly over powered. The only way I could see this card fitting into a more balanced role would be for it to either:
A) Cost 1 less than the card it is returning.
B) Cost 1 mana more per minion you have on the field.
C) Cost 4 mana base and have the other player draw a card.

As the card is now, the ability to make your opponent spend 2-5 times as much mana allows for no counter play.
In the same realm of allowing little counter play, Backstab's cost of 0 mana is so out of line. Every other card that deals 2 damage to a minion that you select (aka, not randomly selected or only the enemy hero) costs 1 mana. 1 mana may not seem like a lot, but put this into perspective when you compare the fact that rogues can simultaneously clear the board while placing a 2 cost minion on turn 1 if they go second.

Rogues are also have 2 times (at least) the number of 0 cost cards allowing them way more actions per turn than mana would allow any other class.

Conceal is again, too mana efficient and should have it's mana cost upped to 1 or preferably 2. The only effect that I can find closely related to conceal would be Hand of Protection which costs 1 mana. Both of these spells require at least 1 card from the other player to end and another card to attack the minion that was protected. This level of card efficiency makes them good cards, but the added effect of Conceal being so mana efficient means the rogue is much farther ahead than just in cards.

TL;DR: Nerf rogues buff warriors. Seriously though, whoever thought up Inner Rage and Slam is probably Ghostcrawler in disguise.
Reply Quote
I don't think increasing every 0 cost card to 1 is that great of an idea. For something like Prep then you're cutting its effeciency in half. For Conceal, I could see that being "OK" but at the same time, it was originally 1 cost and changed to 0 when it was nerfed from perma stealth to stealth for just one turn. I personally could see Concea being 1 mana cost and still seeing it played, but I feel that a lot of peoples beef with conceal isn't that it's free, it's that it protects something that's going to kill them next turn when usually it wouldn't because they'd have a turn to react to it. I don't think increasing cost across the board is the right change.

Now for backstab, 1 mana for 2 damage, sounds alright. I would think that if we made its mana cost 1 then what we can do to make it not require a rogue to take an extra turn everytime they'd use it to combo without having that extra mana on their combo card could be like this:

1 Cost

Deal 2 Damage to Target minion, the next card you play that can combo this card costs 1 less.

That way rogues can't use the 0 mana efficiency UNLESS they're playing a Rogue card, and not just ANY rogue card, but one that has a the word "Combo" on it. That way we still see a bit of a nerf to the mana cost of the card, but it doesn't totally break the gameplay it was really intended to assist.

Shadowstep...Oh shadowstep...Returning a card to your hand and reducing the cost by 2. I think that's fine as is but it needs to add "Can't reduce cost to less than (1)"

Prep I think is fine as is, If we increased the cost the reduction cost on it would need to be increased to match it, as that stands, it's not terribly broken since it only counts towards spells, and we don't have many spells to begin that are above 2.

Conceal, I agree I think I could see that going to 1 mana cost again, I think it would rarely see play then which is sad, because all these decks that incorporate those last 2 0 cost cards are gimmick decks, hell one of them is nick named the rogue "miracle" deck. Rather than saying they should be nerfed I think people just need to learn how to play better against it.

For those of you having SERIOUS problems with rogue decks, I would love to see your decklist that you're running so we could help provide feedback on how to play that type of deck against the Miracle deck, or Headcrack deck, what have you.

I honestly think the people "struggling" the win against these "OP" decks are probably ones that just don't have a great strategy on how to beat them, and or just don't have very well constructed decks.
Edited by Hemo on 9/5/2013 6:58 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Sap is way too mana efficient. For only 2 mana, the ability to put your opponent behind 1 turn and as much mana as they put into the original round, the card is carelessly over powered. The only way I could see this card fitting into a more balanced role would be for it to either:
A) Cost 1 less than the card it is returning.
B) Cost 1 mana more per minion you have on the field.
C) Cost 4 mana base and have the other player draw a card.

As the card is now, the ability to make your opponent spend 2-5 times as much mana allows for no counter play.
In the same realm of allowing little counter play, Backstab's cost of 0 mana is so out of line. Every other card that deals 2 damage to a minion that you select (aka, not randomly selected or only the enemy hero) costs 1 mana. 1 mana may not seem like a lot, but put this into perspective when you compare the fact that rogues can simultaneously clear the board while placing a 2 cost minion on turn 1 if they go second.

Rogues are also have 2 times (at least) the number of 0 cost cards allowing them way more actions per turn than mana would allow any other class.

Conceal is again, too mana efficient and should have it's mana cost upped to 1 or preferably 2. The only effect that I can find closely related to conceal would be Hand of Protection which costs 1 mana. Both of these spells require at least 1 card from the other player to end and another card to attack the minion that was protected. This level of card efficiency makes them good cards, but the added effect of Conceal being so mana efficient means the rogue is much farther ahead than just in cards.

TL;DR: Nerf rogues buff warriors. Seriously though, whoever thought up Inner Rage and Slam is probably Ghostcrawler in disguise.


Sap isn't too mana effecient. It's just bounce, it doens't increase the minions cost or anything. Basing the cost on the number of minions on the field, or the mana cost of the minion it's returning would be ridiculous, it would break the card against people playing giants since they have a converted cost based on an X Factor. Sap is fine as is, it works just as it would in any other card game, low cost for temporary removal.

Don't really see how it makes someone spend 2-5 times as much mana, it's at worst 2 (or 3 if they sap the same minion twice)

I can see Backstabs mana being reworked, see my above post for how we could fix it without breaking it for what it was originally intended to be used for...

Also addressed the other stuff in above post as well.
Reply Quote
Just a side note, the minion Faerie Dragon, the card ability says it can't be targeted by spells or hero powers, despite the fact damage to all minion works, I don't understand how rogue hero power could still work on this minion...
Reply Quote
Aside from the obvious problems with coin counting as a card/spell, the question comes down to whether Rogues are winning disproportionately, which only Blizzard can tell.

If they are, then the various points raised in this thread and forum would be things to look at. If they aren't, then "every class is good with the right cards in hand" is the fair reply.
Reply Quote
Knetog-- Faerie Dragon's ability isn't Stealth. It can be attacked. The Rogue is attacking it with a weapon. It doesn't matter where the weapon came from.

The Rogue hero ability doesn't "target" like the Mage's, it summons something, like the Paladin's.
Reply Quote
Knetog-- Faerie Dragon's ability isn't Stealth. It can be attacked. The Rogue is attacking it with a weapon. It doesn't matter where the weapon came from.

The Rogue hero ability doesn't "target" like the Mage's, it summons something, like the Paladin's.


I'm fully aware it's not stealth and that weapon can hit it, thought the weapon comes from his hero power, he should not be able to target him, otherwise change the card description to "Can't be targeted by spells or hero powers; except for druid and rogue".
Reply Quote
Forgot to mention the minion Gadgetzan Auctioneer which draw 1 card each time you cast a spell. Considering rogue can play cards freely, their biggest con is having 0 card in their hand, thought with this minion rogue can land 6-10 cards a turn and still remain with a full hand to play next turn. I'm in 3 star master rank and most duel I face are agaisn't rogue, I WONDER WHY?
Reply Quote
09/05/2013 06:47 PMPosted by Knetog
I'm in 3 star master rank and most duel I face are agaisn't rogue, I WONDER WHY?


I keep seeing people say that, yet I'm 3Star Master playing as a rogue, And I'm pretty sure I play against another rogue less than 1 out of 9 games. TBH I see a lot of hunters, mages, and warlocks. The only class I seem to see less than rogues is warriors...
Reply Quote
^ Same

Also lol @ 6-10 cards in a turn....riiiiiiiiight.
Reply Quote
I play miracle rogue deck and I do think that some of the cards are a little off. That being said, I think most of the issues have to do with the card "conceal". That card is broken.
Reply Quote
If I was making the decision, my changelog would probably be:

- Conceal costs 1
- Coin fixed

I would guess the class would be fine after that. I could also see Gadgetzan Auctioneer going to a 6 mana 5/5.
Edited by vivafringe on 9/5/2013 10:08 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]