Rogues need to be fixed/nerfed Thread

Posts: 695
09/05/2013 06:32 PMPosted by Knetog
I'm fully aware it's not stealth and that weapon can hit it, thought the weapon comes from his hero power, he should not be able to target him, otherwise change the card description to "Can't be targeted by spells or hero powers; except for druid and rogue".

In the language of Hearthstone, the Druid and Rogue hero powers do not target. ie when you click them, you do not get a targeting arrow, like you do for Mage and Priest.
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Posts: 105
09/05/2013 07:42 AMPosted by Hemo
Sap isn't too mana effecient. It's just bounce, it doens't increase the minions cost or anything. Basing the cost on the number of minions on the field, or the mana cost of the minion it's returning would be ridiculous, it would break the card against people playing giants since they have a converted cost based on an X Factor. Sap is fine as is, it works just as it would in any other card game, low cost for temporary removal.


It's too mana efficient in that it requires your opponent to pay double the mana to play one card. It doesn't have to increase the cost of the card played, the mana has already been spent. If I play Senjin Shieldmasta, and the rogue saps it, it costs me 8 mana to play that one card. The fact that is temporary removal doesn't matter when the card still costs mana to play the 2nd time. Just like shadowstep, it should reduce the minion's cost to 0 or have one of the effects I listed.

At this point in time, Rogues are able to preform way more actions per mana point compared to any other class.
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Posts: 257
I don't know what to tell you, Bounce like that has been the same across the board for every card game I've played, it was low cost and just sent it back to the hand. I can't see the problem with it myself since it's basically the same thing in every single game
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Posts: 613
Of all the things that could be discussed, people complain about sap ? For real ? Boomerang has been in MtG for ages, it for sure is a control card and, as such, annoying when played against you, but nothing overpowered. They even got as far as making it unable to target your own minions and made a different card for that.
Be glad Capsize isn't in the game :D
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Posts: 6,103
09/03/2013 11:37 PMPosted by SirGiff
All zero cost cards increased to one. Just see how it works out and go from there.


This would instantly break combo decks.

Making coin not combo would be a great start, but think about it, if you break Rogue Combos, then you also have to break a lot of other decks. Priest quadrupling health then converting it into Attack? Removed. Mages with their crazy direct damage and Polymorph? Removed. Warriors with that stupid 2 Brewmasters, 1 Molten Giant play? (http://www.twitch.tv/iamorz/c/2831066 if you don't know what it is) Removed.

Rogues niche is low-costing cards. Nerfing that just nerfs Rogues to unplayable (even worse than Druids)
Edited by Polarthief on 9/7/2013 9:14 PM PDT
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Posts: 105
This would instantly break combo decks.

Making coin not combo would be a great start, but think about it, if you break Rogue Combos, then you also have to break a lot of other decks. Priest quadrupling health then converting it into Attack? Removed. Mages with their crazy direct damage and Polymorph? Removed. Warriors with that stupid 2 Brewmasters, 1 Molten Giant play? (http://www.twitch.tv/iamorz/c/2831066 if you don't know what it is) Removed.


Except that it doesn't. I just requires 1 more mana to make the combo. It turns a backstab --> Eviscerate combo into a turn three (2 with coin) combo instead of turn 2 (1 with coin).

We don't want all cool combos to be removed, just the ONLY ONE that can be done before 8 mana. Every single combo you just listed requires the game to have progressed into the later stages.

09/07/2013 09:09 PMPosted by Polarthief
Rogues niche is low-costing cards. Nerfing that just nerfs Rogues to unplayable (even worse than Druids)


Druids are actually one of the strongest arena decks because of how safe their cards are.
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Posts: 105
09/07/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Hemo
I don't know what to tell you, Bounce like that has been the same across the board for every card game I've played, it was low cost and just sent it back to the hand. I can't see the problem with it myself since it's basically the same thing in every single game


It can have been in 10 trillion different card games and I don't care. It is a stupid concept and shouldn't be apart of this game. This is Hearthstone, not MTG:Remastered. Buff it's cost or make the minion returned cost less.
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Posts: 257
09/08/2013 05:03 AMPosted by SirGiff


This would instantly break combo decks.

Making coin not combo would be a great start, but think about it, if you break Rogue Combos, then you also have to break a lot of other decks. Priest quadrupling health then converting it into Attack? Removed. Mages with their crazy direct damage and Polymorph? Removed. Warriors with that stupid 2 Brewmasters, 1 Molten Giant play? (http://www.twitch.tv/iamorz/c/2831066 if you don't know what it is) Removed.

Rogues niche is low-costing cards. Nerfing that just nerfs Rogues to unplayable (even worse than Druids)

Until I'm shown math that states otherwise, I'm unconvinced that delaying the rogue's combo capability will break the game. If it does, then the mana costs can be adjusted again. And I fail to see how one mana cards aren't still "low cost".


Because then you're saying those cards that were zero and are now 1 would leave us no wiggle room to use them with another card in the same turn we'd normally use them on, we'd always be a turn behind and the reason they're 0 cost is so we can use them to catch up, not fall further behind
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Posts: 11,515
09/08/2013 05:03 AMPosted by SirGiff
Until I'm shown math that states otherwise, I'm unconvinced that delaying the rogue's combo capability will break the game. If it does, then the mana costs can be adjusted again. And I fail to see how one mana cards aren't still "low cost".


Until Blizz posts stats I'm still unconvinced that Rogues are even doing better than other classes in the high end on play mode.

I'd probably be playing another class if Blizz gave male and female hero choices for all of them.
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Posts: 257
Yeah we will see...It'll be awhile before they do that though. Not everyone has every card.

It's like people don't understand the process of a card game doe. Blizzard testers sit down, have access to every card, and just build and play decks ALLLLL day er' day. And once they made all their balance changes and played some more all day er day, and there wasn't a huge gap between any deck/class they rolled it out to closed beta...

It's not like they just thought up cards and said "hyuck, it'd be rly kewl if rogues has aoe staelth liek in WoW lulz. Lets give them conceal lolol" and didn't play test it at all to make sure it wasn't OP.

Blizzard wouldn't roll out an imbalanced game to closed beta, they'd have SEEN if rogues were winning more than other classes/decks in their tests before we would have even had a chance to be "OP".

It's either:

1. Player needs to L2P
2. Player needs to build deck better (or just have access to better cards)
3. RNG

for #2 I really hope the people that are complaining about rogues aren't the guys that are like "I refuse to buy packs, this game is F2P and that's how I'm going to play it"...

for #3 I will say this - There have been times when I would have LOST games, lots of them by now since I've got so many games under my belt where if I didn't draw the exact card I needed to win, I'd have been done for.

Just happend last night actually, I was praying for a Blade Flurry, if I drew it, I won, if I didn't I lost next turn. What did I draw? A BLADE FLURRY! HAZZAH!

IRL though, I would have drawn, thrown it on the table, and the other guy would have thought "Oh man lucky draw, fuuuu" rather than thinking I had every card I needed all game and was "sitting pretty" the entire time and walking away thinking OMG WTF HE HAD AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING ROGUE SO OP OMG I GO TO FORUM NOW TELL BLIZZ HOW OP ROGUE IS!!!
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Posts: 357
Can we all just agree that druids need a nerf WAY before rogues do?
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Posts: 257
I like my Drood deck.

I love their cards. The way they're all "You can this, or you can do that" is a lot of fun to play with.

Like druid of the claw. Beefy taunt minion? Or 4/4 with charge? So cool.
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Posts: 105
09/09/2013 07:38 AMPosted by Hemo
Blizzard wouldn't roll out an imbalanced game to closed beta, they'd have SEEN if rogues were winning more than other classes/decks in their tests before we would have even had a chance to be "OP".


Because every card combo can be thought up by a limited group of testers amirite? No, the beta is supposed to help find balance issues as well as minor bugs, graphical errors, and stress test the game. If that's not what you're here to do, you probably got a beta key by accident.
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Posts: 257
Blizzard wouldn't roll out an imbalanced game to closed beta, they'd have SEEN if rogues were winning more than other classes/decks in their tests before we would have even had a chance to be "OP".


Because every card combo can be thought up by a limited group of testers amirite? No, the beta is supposed to help find balance issues as well as minor bugs, graphical errors, and stress test the game. If that's not what you're here to do, you probably got a beta key by accident.


Every card combo can be thought up by a limited group of testers, that's their job, its what they are there to do. They're there for the same things we're here for, to find balnace issues and report bugs, etc.. Why would you think otherwise? We don't even know if it really was a limited group, or the amount of time spent in internal testing either.

Besides that the things people are complaining about with rogues aren't very complex deck builds. Hell the game itself isn't that complex, certainly not enough to make lame excuse statements like yours. Our "issues" are the cost of our cards, Coin combo'ing, Conceal, and I guess since I'm talking to you we'll toss Sap mana effeciency in there too.

Yeah, it would take a real crack team to figure out of there were problems with that stuff, Blizzard must have not seen any problems with that because their team was so limited...or NOT.

Conceal was already nerfed from what it was when they tested it. Pretty sure they looked at everything else while they were at it too. Adrenaline Rush wasn't released either, they play tested everything, if it were found that rogues had a substantial leg up on anyone, further changes woul have been made and we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this, and on top of that, other 3 Star Masters wouldn't be saying we're fine as is and would be saying LOLOL WE DO WIN 90% OF THE TIME LOLOLOL WE'RE SO OP!!

Pretty sure everyone here is on the same page, we're here to report flaws, but no matter how balanced a game is, there will be people that are going to claim it isn't balanced because they don't like how X card works. (Which is why I've asked people that have problems with rogue decks to post their decklists so we can try to help them figure out a tactic to help beat us, or provide helpful deck construction feedback) - No one's going to be here trying to defend a obviously broken class, and if that was going on you really think all of us 3 Star Master rogues are in cahoots with eachother? "Hey guys we need to have a united front on the forums saying we're not winning 90% of our games, if we don't blizzard will be on to us and we'll get nerfed!"

With that said, I have reported the bugs I've found, so I've done my part, I'm also playing the game a lot so I guess you could say I'm helping with stress testing it. Maybe you're right though, I got my key by accident.
Edited by Hemo on 9/10/2013 7:25 AM PDT
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Posts: 257
No one's going to be here trying to defend a obviously broken class

Unless they have an emotional investment in the class causing their judgement about balance to skew slightly due to personal bias.


I highly doubt it, but it is true it could happen, which is why I added in the fact that all of us are defending it, odds are not all of us have emtional bias to the deck/class and or don't realize we're here to help blizzard fix these things and need to report that we may or may not be broken.
Edited by Hemo on 9/10/2013 8:29 AM PDT
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Posts: 5
its just very annoying when playing Arena and your 3 losses are all to rogues
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Posts: 1,275
I agree with making the coin not combo...

That 1st round Defias is bull. Unless you're very lucky on your own draw, it's going to give the rogue a very large lead, and since the rogue is built to prevent you from building up anything, even a small lead at the start can be carried through 4-5 rounds of shutting you down for an easy win.

I personally haven't run into any problems with headcrack... because it can only target your hero, it can't stop you from doing what you are on your side - so there's a lot of ways to just power through it.

The legendaries in general are tough to deal with... I had a druid with innervate play an alarm bot and get a turn 2 deathwing on me... granted, incredibly unlikely he'd get that lucky to have both the alarm bot and deathwing and have me have no 3-damage burn cards, silence cards, or anything of the sort, and have the alarm bot choose deathwing from his hand...but yeah... that was pretty lame too.
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Posts: 1,275
Ever played wow? Check out some of the youtube videos on class balance...

Wowcrendor has a good one where he goes into it. Basically if you want to always be a viable DPS without class swapping, pick mage. Other classes ride the see-saw.... and some classes never get to be #1. They might get to be #3 or #4 for a an extended period, which is fine...but never #1.

There's definitely a lot of bias at blizzard.
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