Game breaker - Conceal, Questing Adventurer

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Posts: 3
I've encountered and lost to the following card combination more times than I can count. After months of playing this game, this is the first time I've come to think of something as a game breaker.

Now this problem may be symptomatic of other complaints about the Rogue and arguements about "Head Crack" and "Edwin VanCleef". However, I've narrowed this particular argument down to just "Conceal". This is because the other cards in this combo are the Neutral cards "Questing Adventurer" and "Gadgetzan Auctioneer".

"Questing Adventurer" - Whenever you play a card, gain +1/+1.
Common 2/2 Minion, Cost - 3 Mana

"Gadgetzan Auctioneer" - Whenever you cast a spell, draw a card.
Rare 4/4 Minion, Cost - 5 Mana

"Conceal" - Give your minions Stealth until your next turn.
Common Spell, Cost - 0 Mana

Stealth is probably the hardest obstacle to deal with in this game for the simple fact that it can't be directly targeted with a spell or silenced. You have to use spells that target at random or deal damage to all enemies. Most of the time an opponent can scale their spells against the health of a minion based on mana cost. The problem here is that the synergy of the Rogue with the low to no cost spells allows for a Stealth-ed Questing Adventurer of 4/4-7/7 as early as the end of turn 2 if you have "The Coin". Granted that's under ideal conditions. If this only happened on a fluke, I might be able to dismiss it. However, it's happening a lot. It doesn't really matter when this combo comes out. When it does, it generally scales the Adventurer out of reach of a spell or you didn't draw the spell you need to combat the stealth.

The beauty of using "Questing Adventurer" over "Edwin VanCleef" is that he can buff over the course of the game and is a common card. Whereas, VanCleef is a 1 turn Legendary pony. Generally this combo is so efficient that the Rogue spells are sufficiently pestering the opponent while quietly buffing "QA". In the games where I have seen this, the Rogue always has back to back "Conceal" and has laid down "Gadgetzan Auctioneer" to either set up the combo or on the second round to draw the cards he needs to complete it. He will also use "Shadowstep" to hide the Auctioneer if he is trying to draw his combo in the same pestering way.

If you look at the makeup of the Rogue cards, you will see that the first 8 cards are 0-1 mana spells with the next 5 being 2 mana spells.
That's amazing! The Rogue can make up over 1/4 of his deck with no cost spells! Over half his deck with 1 cost spells! Oh and btw, he can carry two 0-cost spells that make two of his 2-cost spells free.

It's kind of ridiculous!!!
Posts: 1,379
I don't think it's necessarily conceal, rather the minion that gives any friendly minion stealth until they attack. That minion can be used for some insane combos. I've done it and I have been able to draw my entire deck when the person still had almost half of their deck left. If they were to change anything (not saying it's broken or not, because I don't know everythign about the game), rogues would need a massive rebalance.
Posts: 256
QA isn't a build up over time guy, he's easily dealt with if you play him like that. He's just as much a 1 trick pony as VC, it's all about playing him, buffing him up to ungodly amounts of ATK/DEF and then concealing and swinging for the fences the next turn.
Posts: 123
I guess you played against me then... :P

Its not an OP combo, you have to be very lucky in the first place...

A lot of classes can break it. And thats considering the fact that you need 3 specific cards in your hand out of 30 at the same time.
Edited by Spoiller on 8/30/2013 8:51 PM PDT
Posts: 123
It is unreliable... what happens is that if you don't get the draws, you stall as much as u can.

Paladin can end a game much easier than a rogue
Posts: 123
Druid

- Savagery, Swipe, Starfall

Hunter

- Flare, Explosive Trap, Freezing Trap, Misdirection, Snipe, Deadly Shot, Multi-Shot

Mage

- Arcane Missiles, Arcane Explosion, Frost Nova, Counterspell, Vaporize, Blizzard, Flamestrike.

Paladin

- Eye for an Eye, Noble Sacrifice, Repetance, Equality, Consecration, Avenging Wrath.

Priest

- Silence, Mass Dispel, Holy Nova, Mind Control.

Shaman

- Forked Lightning, Lightning Storm

Warlock

- Hellfire, Shadowflame, Twisting Nether

Warrior

- Whirlwind, Execute, Cleave, Brawl

All theses cards can be used to counter the combo. Some classes have less options than others, some cards don't work out of synergy with a second card (same as the rogue with 3 card synergy).

And if someone says "Who would use "X" card in a deck?" - Remeber that there is something called METAGAME, which defines the composition of decks based on whats being played.
Posts: 1,712
What some rogues don't seem to get is that asking classes to build decks to counter a broken card in their deck while ignoring the other 8 classes is hilarious. Conceal is going to get nerfed. Deal with it.
Edited by Hippy on 8/31/2013 1:05 PM PDT
Posts: 195
The cards Spoiller mentioned are likely to be running in the deck already anyway.
Posts: 10
Questing Adventurer
Whenever you play a card, gain +1/+1.

Maybe to

Questing Adventurer
Whenever you play a MINION, gain +1/+1.

I'd say the Questing Adventurer is just too good right now :

-Potential to snowball out of control.
-Forces opponent to deal with it, Usually wasting removal on a 3 mana card.
-Will be conciderable harder to deal with if not directly dealt with.
-Works in about every deck.
-Decent card in of itself, no direct drawbacks.
Posts: 123
08/31/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Hippy
What some rogues don't seem to get is that asking classes to build decks to counter a broken card in their deck while ignoring the other 8 classes is hilarious. Conceal is going to get nerfed. Deal with it.


There is no broken card in the deck... have you played conceal before the nerf?

Conceal used to be 1 Mana cost and PERMA-STEALTH, then it got nerfed to what it is now.

You are talking about the odds of drawing 1-2 out of 30 cards in the deck, also drawing other 1-2 cards out of 30 at the same time and at the right turn.

I agree with the coin being too good for rogues right now, but the cry about either Conceal or Questing adventurer is nonsense.

The meta has shifted to rogues (and a lot suck btw) from Warlocks, and its going to shift to something else in the near future.

I don't run the Miracle Rogue deck, I've played it before and it feels like a pure RNG gimmick to me. Yes, IF you draw the right cards and IF the opponent doesn't take action against it, its game over... however thats how it rolls for every other match.

I invite you to build up the Miracle rogue and have a few matches with me.
Posts: 4,170
08/31/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Spoiller
What some rogues don't seem to get is that asking classes to build decks to counter a broken card in their deck while ignoring the other 8 classes is hilarious. Conceal is going to get nerfed. Deal with it.


There is no broken card in the deck... have you played conceal before the nerf?

Conceal used to be 1 Mana cost and PERMA-STEALTH, then it got nerfed to what it is now.

You are talking about the odds of drawing 1-2 out of 30 cards in the deck, also drawing other 1-2 cards out of 30 at the same time and at the right turn.

I agree with the coin being too good for rogues right now, but the cry about either Conceal or Questing adventurer is nonsense.

The meta has shifted to rogues (and a lot suck btw) from Warlocks, and its going to shift to something else in the near future.

I don't run the Miracle Rogue deck, I've played it before and it feels like a pure RNG gimmick to me. Yes, IF you draw the right cards and IF the opponent doesn't take action against it, its game over... however thats how it rolls for every other match.

I invite you to build up the Miracle rogue and have a few matches with me.


What ARE you talking about?

There's no "miracle" involved. There's plenty of room for 2x Questing Adventurers and 2x Conceal Cards in any Rogue deck. It's a solid minion choice for any Rogues.

I've been using Questing Adventurers to draw fire from my +Spellpower cards and to force my opponent to spend their counters on them before I bring out the bigger guns - but that doesn't mean they won't win the match if the opponent CAN'T counter them.

Seriously, you don't need to build a deck completely around Questing Adventurers grown to 14/14. It's a 3-mana card. There's all kinds of ways to use it that'll get you an advantage. If it kills a 5-cost minion but dies itself, you're ahead. If it kills a minion AND makes your opponent waste an instant-kill, you're still ahead.

My deck does not rely on me drawing these guys, or on always using them with Conceal. That does not prevent me from using them like that when the opportunity presents itself. I've gotten all the way up to Expert level - and I've had matches I won with these guys, matches where they got killed early, AND matches where I never drew them at all, but still managed to win.

I wouldn't call it Game Breaking, though. It's a very powerful card for Rogues. But I've seen Priests turn a high-health minion into 20/20 in one turn - and I saw a Warrior whip out a Raging Worgen, enrage it, buff it up to ten attack, and charge with it for 2x hits in a single turn. There are OTHER very powerful cards out there.
Posts: 11,502
questing adventurer is just good because it forces immediate reaction, in many cases throwing off your opponents plan.
Posts: 256
09/02/2013 05:17 AMPosted by TianZi
questing adventurer is just good because it forces immediate reaction, in many cases throwing off your opponents plan.


Indeed.
Posts: 413
I think it's more problematic when you can play the QA then immediately follow with a handful of cheap spells. Then by the time it's you're opponent's turn, it's not dealing with a 2/2 or 3/3 but a 5/5+ stealth immediately... good luck with that.
Posts: 256
Yep..took them 2 cards with conceal to basically play put down an Stranglethorn Tiger

Talk about losing card advantage lol...4 Cards for a 5/5 with stealth for a turn!
Posts: 12,559
The problem with QA/GA decks like that is its too random (for my taste)

You literally have to play at a snails pace till you get the needed cards, so your foe has MORE than enough time to put enough pressure on you where by the time you get what you need out you are dead anyway.

I tried running a few different decks with this style..and while if I did get out my QA I usually was able to win....a lot of times I wasnt able to keep myself up to draw him.

Reason being that you have to save up all your low cost cards for buffing the QA.....you cant Backstab a turn one minion, you can lay down that 2 cost spell for pressure, If you throw down that taunter you will be out of mana to buff your QA any further, etc. etc.

I have lost many a game using this type of deck...just sitting there waiting for my QA with a hand full of low cost spells that I

1) Couldnt use since their minions were too big to even be pressured by them

2) Couldnt use because they were my main spells to buff my QA

Not to mention if your QA is removed (hex, poly, etc.) then you are pretty boned
Posts: 79
You can easily defeat this deck with an aggressive strategy. The more cards you force them to use early, the more difficult it will be for them to grow an Adventurer or VanCleef.

While I don't agree that the deck is too powerful, I do agree that it should still be nerfed. The reason for this is because of the play experience. The matches are non-interactive and incredibly boring, as if the rogue is playing their own little game. If the first game someone plays is against this deck, I'm pretty sure they would quit the game on the spot.
Posts: 251
Played a dude with gadgetzan auctioneer, questing adventurer and conceal. Anyone that says you can counter it is blowing smoke out their !@#.

If played correctly and with both conceals, along with a rogue's many, many other literally free and nearly free abilities, a rogue can draw 10+ cards out of the deck in a single turn with an auctioneer and an adventurer down, play just as many, and they will never be unstealthed for you to act against them in just the 2 turns it takes them to empty their deck and blow through 30 health on your hero.

A rogue with this deck can literally just skip 5 turns in a row waiting for these cards to come up, letting you do anything you wish to him, and still absolutely wreck you when they do - because unless you're a rogue, you'll never be able to match the power he's about to put out.
Edited by Applemask on 9/5/2013 9:57 AM PDT
Posts: 256
Played a dude with gadgetzan auctioneer, questing adventurer and conceal. Anyone that says you can counter it is blowing smoke out their !@#.

If played correctly and with both conceals, along with a rogue's many, many other literally free and nearly free abilities, a rogue can draw 10+ cards out of the deck in a single turn with an auctioneer and an adventurer down, play just as many, and they will never be unstealthed for you to act against them in just the 2 turns it takes them to empty their deck and blow through 30 health on your hero.

A rogue with this deck can literally just skip 5 turns in a row waiting for these cards to come up, letting you do anything you wish to him, and still absolutely wreck you when they do - because unless you're a rogue, you'll never be able to match the power he's about to put out.


Every class has access to card(s) that can counter a stealthed GA which is needed to make the combo work, and tha'ts if they draw what the need, then set it up and use it, before you kill them.

Deck is far from broken,

The problem with that deck isn't the deck itself it's the people playing against that deck's mentality. You think a match should be like a chess game, everytime, people trading blows until someone loses tempo, or makes a blow too hard for someone to recover. That's not how EVERY deck will be made to play. Combo decks aren't like that. They take hits until they can put together such a devisating blow that they K.O. you in one go.

The deck isn't OP because you can't counter what it does, that's the point of any good combo deck.

60-65% is a good average win % for many esports, you're winning more than you're losing. As long as this type of Combo deck is winning and losing just as much as any other deck is, then it's no different than any other deck, it just wins in a way that's less fun for the other player because they feel cheated rather than bested.

Now obviously since we don't have access to Win ratios in the game there's no way to know FOR SURE what the win ratio people are getting with this deck. What I can say is that just like with every other combo deck, it's likely it's lower than other decks, if not way lower just due to the RNG nature of Combo decks. They have to draw the right cards to win, and that can't happen every single game.

On top of that, if you just change up your strategy and stop thinking of what your oppenant will do to counter things like, board wiping you if you drop lots of things and realize the deck isn't running that and just drop things and play things to your hearts content and just go straight for their throat, screw board removing any of their non-threat creatures like QA, etc, just go straight for the player and burn burn burn. That will help you win even more games against them.

These decks thrive on drawing the right cards by chance, and by people not playing correctly against them.
Edited by Hemo on 9/5/2013 10:38 AM PDT
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