Heroes shouldn't have forced latency

Posts: 65
Heroes Latency - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjDMoi22Apk
(This is the best I could do, It would be awesome if someone could make a higher quality video with more accurate timings)

For the same reasons you wouldn't put a forced 300ms delay on a first person shooter, there shouldn't be unnecessary latency in a MOBA. Playing with delay makes the game less enjoyable, especially when it's a game focused around 20 minutes of fast paced PvP combat, where latency can be the deciding factor to whether you were able to land a skill shot or dodge a hook. I've heard from multiple sources that this was a core feature of the SC2 engine, and that is why this forced latency exists, and I'm hoping it can be changed, or at least I really hope a Blizzard employee acknowledges this issue and lets us know what is going on. I don't see why Heroes should have 2-3 times higher latency than other MOBAs.

Edit: New Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNxQp_mlkA#t

Reddit post - http://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/2a9ssv/heroes_shouldnt_have_forced_latency/
Edited by So1dier on 7/9/2014 10:10 PM PDT
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Yeah this has been addressed before I believe. I think the server-side latency is 0.40 seconds. That's pretty massive. Compared to server-side latency of (The one the video I saw used) Heroes of Newerth, which was 0.20 seconds from, I think East Coast to Europe, and 0.02 seconds from East Coast to West Coast servers (Ergo Heroes of the Storm based on that guy's tests has like 200x more server-side latency).

So yea, it's a million times higher. It's really annoying honestly, for things like...

Blood for Blood. This thing already has short range, but it's really annoying when it doesn't go off and they barely walk out of range.

Tyrael's Trait. Already sub-par, it's ridiculously easy to juke a Tyrael unless you're walking in a straight line thanks to the input delay.

Tele-CC and now I'm at 10% HP out of stun, better use my escape! Oh wait, I'll just sit here till my last 10% goes down the drain as I'm spamming whatever button is my escape tool.

I really hope it will be fixed come Beta/Release.
Edited by Severage on 7/9/2014 1:43 PM PDT
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I haven't seen a blue post yet on this issue, I would at least like Blizzard to acknowledge this and tell us what their plans are.
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Hopefully Blizzard addresses this correctly. This feels like something that needs to be fixed before this game enters a Beta phase.
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07/09/2014 01:42 PMPosted by Severage
Yeah this has been addressed before I believe. I think the server-side latency is 0.40 seconds. That's pretty massive. Compared to server-side latency of (The one the video I saw used) Heroes of Newerth, which was 0.20 seconds from, I think East Coast to Europe, and 0.02 seconds from East Coast to West Coast servers (Ergo Heroes of the Storm based on that guy's tests has like 200x more server-side latency).


0.40 is not 200 times 0.02.

Also, it's impossible for East Coast - West Coast latency to be 0.02 seconds. At the speed of light, it would take about 0.013 seconds to get from New York to Los Angeles along the minimal-distance geodesic. With router latency and the fact that signals don't actually propagate at the speed of light through networks, you're looking at at least around 0.05 seconds latency in practice.

For real data: AT&T reports average network latencies between their network hubs of 0.065 seconds (or so) between LA and NYC. Source: http://ipnetwork.bgtmo.ip.att.net/pws/global_network_avgs.html

Consumers will have higher latency than this because they are not connected directly at a major internet routing station (and usually the server they're connecting to isn't, either) - usually between 0.07 and 0.08 seconds, at least.

Beyond that, human reaction time to simple stimulus that you expect is on average about 0.2 seconds (where "expect" means something like: you are given a button, and a light. You are told to press the button when the light turns on, which will happen at a random time). To less-expected stimuli with more complicated possible reactions, it can be significantly slower.

So latency of 0.40 seconds isn't usually quite as bad as it sounds (it's more like tripling your normal reaction time, not multiplying it by 20), but it's still very noticeable (0.02 latency, on the other hand, had might as well be 0 latency for a human being).

It is very significant in situations where you can anticipate when you need to press a button - i.e. pressing an escape when you leave a stun, as you mentioned. A human might often have close to 0 delay in this type of situation, so 0.4 seconds of latency becomes a much bigger factor.

Heroes definitely feels notably less responsive than LoL for example though.
Edited by Datah on 7/9/2014 5:38 PM PDT
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07/09/2014 05:15 PMPosted by Datah

Heroes definitely feels notably less responsive than LoL for example though.


It feels notably less responsive than Dota with its slower animations and cast points.
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Posts: 198
The main thread for discussing this is here.

http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13087848791?page=2

Nothing wrong with another one but I'm hoping the page count will gain attention and get us a reply from the devs. So post in that thread with any feedback or concerns.

To answer some questions.

07/09/2014 05:15 PMPosted by Datah

Also, it's impossible for East Coast - West Coast latency to be 0.02 seconds. At the speed of light


He miss quoted the video. Delay was 0.2 on a HoN European server while playing from the U.S. East Coast.
The Delay was 0.06 on the HoN East Coaster Server playing from the East Coast.

So 0.2 second delay from the wrong Continent and a 0.06 delay if you play on your own server.

While SC 2 had a 0.4 second delay on the East Coast Sever, playing from the U.S. East Coast.
The video is here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByD29uiJYjc

I personally have a bad internet connection. I live on the East Coast and when I play Dota 2 or Strife I have around a 30ms -40ms delay from the East Coast Servers. I think that properly illustrates the reality of the situation for most people. Anything above 80ms and something is wrong. And it's noticeable for me. While HotS is sporting around a 200-250ms Built In Delay and it is unplayable IMO. The frustration caused by this is insane. How it ever made it to alpha is beyond me. I don't see how the Devs can play like that and question that they do. I'm certain they play their inhouse builds on LAN. Which must be nice :)

07/09/2014 01:46 PMPosted by So1dier
I haven't seen a blue post yet on this issue, I would at least like Blizzard to acknowledge this and tell us what their plans are.


They have acknowledged it because it was in SC 2 as well. I was in the SC 2 WoL beta and it was a big issue than as well. Not for everyone obviously. But it broke the game for me.

But by chance they acknowledged it on the HotS technical forums when a player thought something was wrong with his internet connection. The Support Forum Agent Glaxigrav must of been hired after SC 2 or just not been around that scene enough to recognized the issue. The thread is here and his quote below.
http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13001750120#new-post

06/02/2014 07:06 PMPosted by Glaxigrav

I had a meeting with our Development team today and actually have a bit of information to share. I can't go into super-detail about how the game client-to-server setup works, but essentially there's a buffer on any hosted games (games created through Practice/Co Op/Versus). However, local games such as Tutorial and Try Me modes do not have that buffer since they're hosted locally. I do apologize for any confusion. It looks like the minor delay is currently intended. I showed them the video you hosted on YouTube and it looks like that's the expected behavior at this time.

If you'd like to see the buffer delay change, you'd want to make any suggestions or recommendations in our http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/13267626/?utm_source=Internal-TechForum&utm_medium=Posting&utm_campaign=BlizzardCS&utm_content=060214" class="bml-link-url2">General Feedback forum</a>, where our Community and Developers can gather feedback. There are certain technical limitations surrounding the buffer, but our Developers can look at any adjustments if it's inline with game direction. :)
______________________________
Technical Support: Sunday-Thursday, 12pm - 9pm Pacific Time
How am I doing? // <a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Glaxigrav \\


Here is another video that illustrates the problem within the HotS Client.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNxQp_mlkA#t
Edited by Nodestar on 7/9/2014 7:07 PM PDT
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Posts: 39
so this is intented...oh well looks like some people can deal with it, but for me its the only turn off =(
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Agreed 100%, plz fix.
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Posts: 108
This is going to drive away so many new players who are used to games like League which offer a much better ping. When they're entering a genre currently dominated by another 2 games, it'd be smart to offer equal or better ping before trying to snatch a few of their players.

Bad move blizz, it's frustrating gameplay-wise and it's completely outdated. Players with pitiful internet are a minority (even in Australia) these days and a forced 200ms is practically putting that burden unfairly on everybody else.

Lag causes frustration ---> Frustration causes Toxicity.. just sayin.
Edited by Forrest on 7/9/2014 9:05 PM PDT
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Posts: 39
they didnt expect us to care about this delay, they thought we was going to close our eyes, play our favorite heroes and pay their skins, but we also like when a game have a minimum of challenge, i dont dislike the game at all, i got invited like 2 days ago and this was the fist thing we noticed with my friend
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07/09/2014 05:15 PMPosted by Datah
0.40 is not 200 times 0.02.


lol. 20x, derp.

And my mistake, it may have been he was on the West Coast, testing West Coast servers, not East Coast. I forget exactly, but I was just repeating what I saw in the video the day before.

07/09/2014 05:15 PMPosted by Datah
It is very significant in situations where you can anticipate when you need to press a button - i.e. pressing an escape when you leave a stun, as you mentioned. A human might often have close to 0 delay in this type of situation, so 0.4 seconds of latency becomes a much bigger factor.


Very true. A lot of abilities, like dodging a Zeratul Singularity Spike, a Nova Snipe, etc. is all preemptive maneuvers since it's virtually impossible to literally dodge the shot. You basically want to anticipate when they will approximately use it, then try to move out of the way at the same time or barely before so they fire off in the wrong direction (Or, for me, Dive since I play Illidan when I expect them to use it).

The latency removes this ability almost entirely, it's a bit difficult to make judgments when everyone is playing half a second in the future to what you're seeing, so to speak.

Lastly, even if you don't find yourself in a situation where the delay debilitates you, the game seems to play much more sluggishly. It's like you can subconsciously tell there's something wrong/slow, even if it's not directly effecting you. I really don't like this as a MoBA player from other games. Those games are often based on split-second reactions and I need to be able to move as fast as I can humanly react.
Edited by Severage on 7/9/2014 11:11 PM PDT
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Posts: 36
I had this nagging feeling that this was happening. I knew there had to be a reason that I kept missing skill shots.
Honestly, this ruins the game for me.

I understand the limitations of a synchronous engine architecture, but I can't see how this was a good choice for a game that requires split second timing.

So everyone playing has a complete and identical copy of the game running on their own machines. When anyone takes an action, that action has to be sent to everyone playing. They then have to send an acknowledgement that they received that particular action. Once everyone has acknowledged that they have the command, only then will that command be executed. The buffer that is mentioned is a 100ms - 300ms delay built in so all clients have time to reply.

This is also the reason that when you disconnect .. the client says it's "catching you up". What it means is that it is taking all those inputs from every player, and then re-simulating the entire game until you are N-SYNC.

I'm not a network engineer and this is a pretty simple explanation, so try to take it easy on me.

I don't really see how this architecture is going to work out .. especially with how competitive these types of games tend to be, not to mention how vulnerable they are to maphacks.
Edited by Cyranis on 7/10/2014 4:24 AM PDT
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07/10/2014 02:50 AMPosted by Cyranis

I understand the limitations of a synchronous engine architecture, but I can't see how this was a good choice for a game that requires split second timing.

So everyone playing has a complete and identical copy of the game running on their own machines. When anyone takes an action, that action has to be sent to everyone playing. They then have to send an acknowledgement that they received that particular action. Once everyone has acknowledged that they have the command, only then will that command be executed. The buffer that is mentioned is a 100ms - 300ms delay built in so all clients have time to reply.

This is also the reason that when you disconnect .. the client says it's "catching you up". What it means is that it is taking all those inputs from every player, and then re-simulating the entire game until you are N-SYNC.

I'm not a network engineer and this is a pretty simple explanation, so try to take it easy on me.

I don't really see how this architecture is going to work out .. especially with how competitive these types of games tend to be, not to mention how vulnerable they are to maphacks.


Interesting. I'm also afraid they built a MOBA on an Indian Burial ground with the SC 2 engine. But you have to give them some credit. They do this for a living. Surely they anticipated the challenges. I'm not super confident that this will all work out. Their silence doesn't help my paranoia. But I'm not ready to scream the End is Here yet.
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Posts: 75
Agreed. The game is generally fun but this is a major thorn in my side. I'm in Zagara's Maw with 20% HP and want to use my escape immediately upon exit? Oh, I hit it 25 times immediately as I exited the Maw? Too bad; I'm dead and the ability was never used despite the fact I was alive nearly a full half-second after exiting the Maw. This kind of coding just makes the game feel sloppy, sluggish, and frustrating.
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Posts: 30
Yeah this needs to be fixed it wont fly in a game like this
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Posts: 18
The inherent lag of the game definitely kills the gameplay. It unacceptable to have to judge a constant lag just to hit skill shots. If this is not fixed, I for one will not spend any money on this game.
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Posts: 39
is it the main thread for asking to remove the delay, like a petition, because i want more reply if its the right one !
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07/10/2014 07:28 PMPosted by thakingz
is it the main thread for asking to remove the delay, like a petition, because i want more reply if its the right one !


This one has 3 pages and allot more info. With vids and blue post quotes etc.
http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13087848791?page=1

But both this thread and that one are generally on the first page.
Edited by Nodestar on 7/10/2014 7:58 PM PDT
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