07/07/2015 02:15 AMPosted by gaeshin

07/07/2015 01:33 AMPosted by JKR666

Leoric looks like he'll be considered OP as well.

He looks like a harmless stalker to me after reading through his kits. Also he seems like he needs to synergize with others in order to be more OP.

So he'll be rather OP then? I mean, Heroes is a bit more focused on teamplay than a lot of other mobas. Saying a hero will only be OP is if he isn't running a lone wolf isn't saying much.

Looking at his kit - I figure the ideal build for him would be one where the goal is to get into the fight - stay in the fight, die in the fight, come back into the fight. Building talents that just grant him more life/sustain while dead would have him rematerializing during a 5v5, making it so he's never really taken out.

Definitely wouldn't consider him a solo-laner, but a !@#$ing nightmare in teamfights - direct opposite of Butcher, really.

OT: Butcher can be countered by, being ungenerous, 90% of the heroes in game. He cannot be countered by stupid plays. His charge is only unstoppable once it starts - there's about a second of wind-up - and after the charge he's stunned for about 0.5 seconds from collision... then he can also be hit by CC right then - any dashes will also save you because his charge is now on - at the very least - an 8 second cd.

Considering he has the movement speed of Stitches (though I feel like it's slower)... it's really not that hard to get away from him unless he takes Lamb.

But taking Lamb ignores a huge potential for damage and teamfight capability considering at level 20 the only use it has is locking up one target (or the whole team, if you take that over Blink - your only escape).

Butcher is an insanely powerful duelist - if you facetank him while he's healing or have no means of escaping him. But since Heroes is about teamplay - and it really does put a huge emphasis on teamplay - Butcher is only useful to pubstomp.

utcher is an insanely powerful duelist - if you facetank him while he's healing or have no means of escaping him. But since Heroes is about teamplay - and it really does put a huge emphasis on teamplay - Butcher is only useful to pubstomp.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the success of butcher depends on two things: how well an openent is able to counter his strategy/kit. And how well butchers teamates assist him in pulling off his kit.

1v1 is seems like butcher is very powerful but very counter able. Currently people are working on some mean combos with him. Lambs of the slaughter plus Kael flame strikes. Onslaught - furnace - divine shield. Even just a butcher with a hat is pretty strong, or roaming with a tyrande.

My question is when evaluating 5v5 play can an opposing team do more to prevent butchers success than your team can do to force his success. So far it looks pretty right down the middle, probably leaning closer to the easier to shutdown than to assist side of things.

07/07/2015 07:25 AMPosted by Overlord

utcher is an insanely powerful duelist - if you facetank him while he's healing or have no means of escaping him. But since Heroes is about teamplay - and it really does put a huge emphasis on teamplay - Butcher is only useful to pubstomp.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the success of butcher depends on two things: how well an openent is able to counter his strategy/kit. And how well butchers teamates assist him in pulling off his kit.

1v1 is seems like butcher is very powerful but very counter able. Currently people are working on some mean combos with him. Lambs of the slaughter plus Kael flame strikes. Onslaught - furnace - divine shield. Even just a butcher with a hat is pretty strong, or roaming with a tyrande.

My question is when evaluating 5v5 play can an opposing team do more to prevent butchers success than your team can do to force his success. So far it looks pretty right down the middle, probably leaning closer to the easier to shutdown than to assist side of things.

You are definitely correct in that this is a better way - and yes, the hat makes him pretty terrifying since it can grant (with talents) a total of 60% bonus Attack Speed between Butcher and Hatbuther.

And as far as the last paragraph... I'd say it's starting to slide a bit quicker toward shutdown rather than success. Butcher needs a team constructed around his form of play - but once done so, he's a very terrifying opponent. So for QM - his winrate will be 50/50, and might hold steady at that or drop off. I imagine it'll hold steady since there are quite a few heroes he works well with, and free weeks for those heroes will up his winrate.

In League, he'll probably be a monster for a while, especially if it's a premade. If their team can get the heroes they need to keep Butcher in the fight before the enemy team realizes they're facing down a Butcher-based team, it'll be messy.

um? don't link to that irrelevant site

that HAS to be against the forum rules

don't give them a single hit, just paste the relevant part of the article in your post

You just quoted Kotaku, that's the problem.

So, it has been a week since the Butcher has been available to the public. So here's a little information on how he's doing overall in the live environment.

According to stats, the Butcher has a positive win rate at lower MMRs. However, when we assess his win rate when looking at higher MMRs, he starts to even out very nicely. The Butcher is just barely under a 50% win rate when looking at average to high level play. Currently, he appears to be nowhere near overpowered or underpowered.

Obviously there is always more to balancing a hero than just win rates, but at a high level, he seems to be looking fine. The dev team will continue to monitor his success (and failures) in the Nexus and tune as necessary, just like the rest of the roster in Heroes of the Storm.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Good game. That match was insanely long! Lots of back and forth action (and throws). :p

Why do you and others focus on win rates? In a team based game, especially one FAR more team focused than other MOBAs, why do you think win-rate is a good indicator? It would seem to me to not necessarily show enough of a determinant of the balance. What about the other numbers? Pick rates? average damage dealt/received compared to other heroes? Do you have the means to get all that and compare him with others?

Not saying he's OP, I think he can be countered hard in hero league/team league, but just want to end the "win rates are all the focus" it seems so many do focus on. You do mention that there's more than win rates, but back that up, try and share that data if you can with the community :) pick rates and damage dealt and received compared to other heroes and such. Would be great.

You do have to acknowledge that winrates is a team stat not an individual stat, but it is still a very telling stat.

Think of it this way. If Jaina's winrate is 55%, that means a team with Jaina wins 5% more often than your average team without Jaina. Therefore you can conclude Jaina has a much larger impact on a teams success than other heroes.

And yeah... I had some pretty bad throws that game, hence the yelling.

07/07/2015 09:13 AMPosted by Trikslyr

The Butcher is just barely under a 50% win rate when looking at average to high level play. Currently, he appears to be nowhere near overpowered or underpowered.

Hey and thanks for posting. Any chance you could clarify what you mean by high level play? With all the complaining of the matchmaker, I'd be leery of using numbers based on a system so many believe to be flawed.

07/07/2015 09:57 AMPosted by Overlord

You do have to acknowledge that winrates is a team stat not an individual stat, but it is still a very telling stat.

Think of it this way. If Jaina's winrate is 55%, that means a team with Jaina wins 5% more often than your average team without Jaina. Therefore you can conclude Jaina has a much larger impact on a teams success than other heroes.

And yeah... I had some pretty bad throws that game, hence the yelling.

That is not how statistics works o.o

There's very strong, simple counterplay to him, he isn't remotely OP. Players with little experience of a given thing, and who don't spend time learning the counterplay often think they're OP when they aren't. See nova.

07/07/2015 10:13 AMPosted by GodEmperor

07/07/2015 09:57 AMPosted by Overlord

You do have to acknowledge that winrates is a team stat not an individual stat, but it is still a very telling stat.

Think of it this way. If Jaina's winrate is 55%, that means a team with Jaina wins 5% more often than your average team without Jaina. Therefore you can conclude Jaina has a much larger impact on a teams success than other heroes.

And yeah... I had some pretty bad throws that game, hence the yelling.

That is not how statistics works o.o

Well there's a ton of other variables, and you have to consider all of the stats they have have margins of error, but how can you just blindly say that you get nothing out of one hero consistently winning more often than other heroes?

If it was just noise and Jaina's 55% winrate was from random variables not her own play, then she'd be top of the charts one weak, middle the next, and randomly the worst win rate hero the next week.

However Jaina has consistently been head and shoulders above the mean winrate. If that statistic holds no weight, how do you explain its consistency?

Winrate isn't perfect but it's the most telling out of any of the stats that are made available to us.

07/07/2015 01:15 AMPosted by Fullmetall

I don't understand this whole Butcher is OP talk. Sure he is a strong melee assassin and in the right team he can produce results. The thing is that he is so team dependent (maybe even more so than Illidan ever was) and really they only thing you need to do to counter him is to simply walk away if you have the mark.

By design he will be right in the middle of your team at almost all times which means if you can deny him his sustain he is more or less dead. The fact that he doesn't have any kind of escape reinforces that statement. Even Thrall can potentially get out with Windfury (and some luck).

07/07/2015 12:37 AMPosted by VArsovskiSC

40% more burst on everything you do - worth risking the brand

While that might be true in general there was no reason for Sonya to engage on 1v1 on the strongest dueler in the game 19 to 20 WotB or not. Also there was a misplay I think on Sonya's part when she used Whirlwind after spear instead of Slam in order to try and finish Butcher off quickly. 20vs20 with Hardened Shield or Imposing Presence would have turned out a lot differently.

So - you're saying that "wasting" a 45 CD heroic is fine if it gets countered by a simple W click on a 14 sec CD ??

What the hell is wrong with you man, imagine that being Odin, Archon, Draken Drill, like - defending a single ability that is as strong as a heroic (disengaging being the counter, yeah right, good one lol)

BB is OP, period.. Don't care about the rest of the hero, but BB is !@#$ing OP, at least it's duration is so badly designed that it requires CHAIN CC to get countered, w.t.f.

And if you say that there's no reason to 1v1 him - guess what - only Sonya with WotB fights 1v1 on him "reasonable", like that's 1 hero out of nearly to be 40 now lol

07/07/2015 10:13 AMPosted by GodEmperor

07/07/2015 09:57 AMPosted by Overlord

You do have to acknowledge that winrates is a team stat not an individual stat, but it is still a very telling stat.

Think of it this way. If Jaina's winrate is 55%, that means a team with Jaina wins 5% more often than your average team without Jaina. Therefore you can conclude Jaina has a much larger impact on a teams success than other heroes.

And yeah... I had some pretty bad throws that game, hence the yelling.

That is not how statistics works o.o

First glance at politics. :p

So, it has been a week since the Butcher has been available to the public. So here's a little information on how he's doing overall in the live environment.

According to stats, the Butcher has a positive win rate at lower MMRs. However, when we assess his win rate when looking at higher MMRs, he starts to even out very nicely. The Butcher is just barely under a 50% win rate when looking at average to high level play. Currently, he appears to be nowhere near overpowered or underpowered.

Obviously there is always more to balancing a hero than just win rates, but at a high level, he seems to be looking fine. The dev team will continue to monitor his success (and failures) in the Nexus and tune as necessary, just like the rest of the roster in Heroes of the Storm.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Good game. That match was insanely long! Lots of back and forth action (and throws). :p

Stats don't tell the whole picture, gotta see which hero CAN deal with him and which CAN'T.. Having a game-balance responsibility (surely maybe not yours but the team's for sure) is that a certain reasonable amount of heroes should be able to deal with him, not just several that get picked as a counter result

Having a "meta" based upon one hero is totally wrong

A bit of "further depth" is that - Butcher's Brand ability is OP, or at least it's freakin' 5 second long duration.. It's just enough long to make him outlast most of the non-suicidal fights by himself which is totally wrong, nerf it's duration, don't care make it even 10 sec CD but with a 3 second duration, so it can get "countered" by a CC and not only disengage

5 seconds "outlasts" any potential of having the decision to "stand the ground" (even with double warrior at front) or just simply engage him in a small 2v1 battle, which is wrong

I know this is waaay "before time" and ahead of ourselves but - time will tell for certain, more than sure that the buff is too long that only disengage works against it and not CC (at least not overkill of CC tho)

5 seconds duration of "total domination" is totally wrong, far too long that requires 2 or sometimes even 3 sets of CC to be dealt with (a good portion of heroes would even require to use heroic to deal with it) overall

07/07/2015 10:27 AMPosted by VArsovskiSC

BB is OP, period.. Don't care about the rest of the hero, but BB is !@#$ing OP, at least it's duration is so badly designed that it requires CHAIN CC to get countered, w.t.f.

So you are telling me that Frostwolf Resilience is OP? The counter to BB is to literally NOT STAND IN HIS RANGE.

The funny thing is that, if anything, Butcher needs a buff.

He may be another QM noob stomper (and it's pretty fun to take him into it), but it's far too easy to completely nullify everything he does. He has too many easy counters, and even low ranked HL players will often be able to do it.

Trik - you don't get the point - oh - you popped Archon - now I'm gonna press W on you and make you waste your ult with a 14 CD ability, simple

THAT's the problem - sure you can "go out of attack range" but - chances are that "buffing him" compositions still aren't discovered at all

Tyrande has a 25% movement speed Quickening Blessing at lvl7 - disengage that combo, Tassadar has 25% movement speed increase on lvl16 bubble, there are TONS of compositions that will make him undisengageable which are unexplored

How about Divine Shield + Enrage ? - how about that one ?

Even the very simple - the talent of his on lvl13 (Crave Flesh) - gain 30% ms bonus with BB - like EVEN THAT simple one talent hasn't been explored (has it ?, ah yes, that's right - the "meta" says Savage Charge is better, yeah right, lol)

Sure - I can get the point of "disengage simply, let it pass", but that CAN'T be a balance-wise game-deciding decision

What if you can't disengage, what if you fight for a beacon at the boss ?, what if you defend a keep of your own ?, what if he's about to attack the core ?

The problem is - you can't watch at "the situation" one dimensional, have to take into consideration Butcher's allies also, which is VASTLY UNEXPLORED territory ATM

I'm VERY CERTAIN, that Quickening Blessing compositions, or even "Crave flesh" talent hasn't been explored. Certainly much less than what "deals with him" overall