Q & A With David Kim

Q & A With David Kim

At the recent G-Star event in Korea, we had an opportunity to talk to some of the GSL’s top competitors and get their feedback on the current state of StarCraft II. This was also a good opportunity to show our players around the world how pro player feedback influences the act of balancing StarCraft II.

While we’ve made a number of balance tweaks over time, at this point the overall game balance is quite solid. There are always variations from region to region, so we rarely make a balance decision based on the numbers from a single region, or even a single tournament or tournament series. While we’re likely to see more changes in the future, we’re going to remain cautious when making even small changes, since they can have sweeping (and sometimes surprising) effects on overall balance. The purpose of this feature is to highlight some of the feedback we received from pro players, and to discuss our perspectives based on that feedback.


MULE -- Too effective when used on high yield mineral patches.

Concerns about the MULE are something that we hear most frequently from the player community at large, but it’s also feedback that we’ve seen from some pro players specifically with regard to high yield mineral patches. In fact, the GSL recently removed high yield patches from its maps in response to this concern. This change seems to have worked out well for the GSL so far, but all the other major tournaments that didn’t remove high yield resources from their maps are still showing very good race representation, so the change doesn’t appear necessary.

There are a lot of potential reasons this could be, but we’ll examine a couple of the most likely. First is that the change really did reduce terran effectiveness in the GSL specifically, but because the terran race does unusually well in Korea, it all balanced out. Another possible reason could be that there is an advantage to terran players from using MULEs on high yields, but it’s not significant enough for the removal of high yield resources to result in a noticeable effect on overall performance.

Regardless, we don’t jump to conclusions and we’re still investigating. If further research suggests conclusively that MULEs do offer too much of an advantage to terran players when used on high yield minerals, we’ll consider an appropriate course of action then.


Spawn Larvae -- This requires too much management; even pro players are unable to manage Spawn Larvae perfectly.

Our stance on this kind of issue is simple: We intentionally make different aspects of the game difficult for the different races. We want each of them to have asymmetric advantages and disadvantages that contribute to very different play styles, but still result in a satisfying, balanced game at the end of the day. Spawn Larvae is more difficult to manage than Chrono Boost or MULEs, but zerg has other advantages -- for example, unit production is relatively easy to manage for zerg compared with the other races. Making side-by-side comparisons of isolated elements won’t show you the whole picture because StarCraft II is asymmetrically balanced, meaning that if a race is strong in one way, then it’s probably also weak where another race is strong.

We also like to see this kind of feedback, because making games easy to learn but difficult to master is one of Blizzard’s core game design philosophies. So, we don’t see it as a problem that, even at the pro level, perfect mastery hasn’t been achieved yet.


Reapers -- Give Reapers back the early-game speed upgrade.

We tend to agree that Reapers can stand to see some improvement. We like the unit, but the problem previously was that Reapers with Nitro Packs were too effective versus zerg in the early game. Unfortunately, after losing their role in early-game harassment, Reapers haven’t proven to be a very powerful or useful unit at most stages of the game.

As we discussed at BlizzCon, we’re taking a hard look at the Reaper, and we’re experimenting with different options to see where Reapers can fit into the terran arsenal with Heart of the Swarm.


Terran -- Stop nerfing us!

There will always be changes as we develop StarCraft II, and we try to minimize nerfs as much as possible. We don’t like making changes unless they’re necessary. Still, we will continue to make small adjustments that we feel need to be made to achieve the best balance possible, and we don’t keep score regarding who is getting the most or the fewest changes. Ultimately, we’re invested in the success of all three races, and we want to make all three perform well.


EMP -- Radius decrease is too significant.

We feel that the dynamic between protoss and terran especially was in need of a change, and this was an efficient method of achieving that. We’re still paying close attention to how the change to EMP affects this matchup globally, as well as on the tournament stage.


Choke Points -- More variance in choke point placement on maps.

We love variety, but maps play a significant role in how balance is achieved, and with that in mind, we need to maintain a certain amount of consistency in map features. For example, all of our 1v1 maps feature relatively close natural expansions, while our 2v2 maps lean toward starting teammates relatively close together.

Ramps into starting positions are another feature which we try to keep pretty consistent. Certain ramp structures, such as particularly wide ramps, would favor fairly specific builds, which is why the ramps leading from starting positions are all alike. We still want diversity in the map pool though, so the ramps leading into natural expansions display more variety, since we see a greater diversity of strategies even when those ramps differ from the norm. This way, an essential terrain feature becomes more interesting.

We also look for other ways to make maps interesting and unique, though it’s difficult to do that without potentially hurting a map’s tournament potential. Typically, tournament map creation is subject to a lot of restrictions, which is also why so many tournament maps share features with one another.


Khaydarin Amulet -- Bring it back!

We wanted to change the dynamic between the protoss and other races, and we like to make small changes to do that. Unfortunately, when the Khaydarin Amulet was still available, we would see players do things like spread pylons everywhere simply to gain the ability to warp in High Templars and storm passing armies. Also, because High Templars were often warped in to cast an immediate storm, there wasn’t a lot of decision making about which ability would be used -- in the vast majority of cases, it would be one cast of Psi Storm, which would deplete all available energy. Also, positioning wasn’t a consideration in too many cases, since the unit would appear, cast storm, and then effectively be forgotten for that battle.

We like the way the High Templar work now, because, while they remain very powerful, some thought and consideration must go into how they’re positioned and which spells are used.

For Heart of the Swarm, we’re exploring better ways to handle energy upgrades, since we’re not quite satisfied with how they work currently.


Void Ray -- Damage output is difficult to read in-game.

We like the visuals in StarCraft II to have clear meaning, and this is good feedback. We'll take a closer look at how the graphic communicates damage output to players at various skill levels. If it does turn out to be unclear, we’ll find ways to improve it.


Protoss Play Style -- More variety please!

This was another issue that came up at BlizzCon. We’re definitely looking at ways to give protoss players more tactical options and more strategic paths. We’ll probably achieve this via new units which will be added in Heart of the Swarm.

We do have good reasons for delaying a large change like this for the expansion. Not to be taken lightly is the fact that balance is actually quite good right now, and major play style changes can have a disruptive effect on balance. Also, patches are intended to fix issues in a small, incremental way, not to introduce entirely new playing experiences and sweeping changes to gameplay. That kind of change is much better left for an expansion, where new units and dramatic shifts in strategy are expected and welcomed.

In short, we do want to give protoss players a better variety of strategic options. We’ve learned a lot from Wings of Liberty, and we’re hoping to achieve an even better and more varied competitive environment overall. In Heart of the Swarm, we expect to see the strategic options available to all three races grow.

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Comments (261)

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AamDamnd #327
AamDamnd
4/30/2012
STOP NERFING US
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Thesis #853
Thesis
4/27/2012
This is hilarious protoss is saying more play styles please yet they have the most play styles so far
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Fellix #526
Fellix
2/15/2012
Well this guy makes absolutely no sense, I disagree with everything he says, I think Husky is just like the forefathers and this guy is like the British, he doesn't know what he is talking about and I have heard much more viable options from Husky and other pros

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=311941

You made reapers useless and you are making ghosts useless too!!!!

Plain and simple stop screwing the game up, I was content with the way it was post launch!!!!
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Fellix #526
Fellix
2/15/2012
@Fellix: Also have to add that needing more protoss variety is BS they have some of the most diverse combat they are very adjustable and they can warp anywhere what else could you ask for.
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Yorick #548
Yorick
1/27/2012
i would like to say that sc2 is a great game overall. But for more variety for protoss players is lacking because we have to get a robo to get detection. I would say make obsevers more available by allowing them to be built from the nexus or something beside just robo
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TeeMoney #479
TeeMoney
1/27/2012
@Yorick: cannons are detectors
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TeeMoney #479
TeeMoney
1/25/2012
to say mules are too effective. rele. Thats terrans economy. toss can pump put probes quick while zerg can make several at a time. terran can do neither. the mules need to be good... the whole thing about spawn larve is also kind of dumb. Its not that hard to manage lol. ANd i do agree reapers have become virtually useless. They are good for killing workers and beginner units but id like to see some changes with them. when i play as terran i find it better to be aggresive. not just curl up in ur base and wait for an attack. anyways im no pro but i love this game tho at first i wished it was more like brood war but its growin on me more more and these are just my thoughts lol peace yall
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LgNavilo #597
LgNavilo
1/25/2012
Ok, something is very wrong at blizzard headquarters right now. I feel that David Kim should be replaced as a balance designer because he actually is not currently keeping up with the top level of play in Starcraft 2.

Everything that has been mentioned here is just actually plain wrong, and there are plenty of GSL games, homestory cup games, etc. as evidence to the contrary.

a) mass mutas vs protoss
It's very powerful. Almost too powerful. It makes the game ridiculously stupid into base races in PvZ a lot of games (just from observation) although just like most other Protoss metagame things, Protoss players aren't really turtling hard enough with templar/stalker balls etc...but even then sometimes doing that makes it so Zerg gets free 5-6 bases...

b ) protoss win rate too low in tournaments
As a lead balance designer I would expect David Kim to understand the simple concept that tournament wins have actually nothing to do with the current balance of the game and the metagame and how players are playing the game at that point in time.

Protoss already is destroying Z/Ts in lots of places, just because they do not finish at the podium every single time does not mean they need "generic buffs." Just no.

c) carrier removal.
Once again, the lead balance designer does not seem to be watching the games where carriers are actually used, but instead is listening to hearsay posted on forums about how the carrier is bad.

If you have actually seen 200/200 late games PvZ where carriers/voids/mothership + templar deathball is used you'd see Zerg has actually no way to counter this at all. It's just that you see it so little no one understands that the carrier is very powerful against Zerg in this situation.

d) Terran can't beat protoss
Once again, it's painfully obvious that David Kim needs to be removed from his position at Blizzard because he is not keeping track of the current metagame. I have no idea if he took vacation or something, but he is just plain wrong.

Watch tournaments, watch pro Terrans streaming, watch ANYTHING, and you will see that Protosses have indeed figured out that they never need to attack and that reaching late game is an automatic advantage for the Protoss player with chargelot warp-ins + a deathball that can deal with bio quite easily since there is no other late game option available to the Terran player except mass BC switches that at high level are nigh impossible to pull off anyways.

TvP lategame in it's current state is actually broken in protosses favor, and every high level Terran knows this and a couple are finally getting fed up with it but they won't say jack shiot because they do not want to be labelled as balance whiners.

This needs to be fixed, stop *#@@# footing around the issue - protoss has the advantage in late game and from playing a turtle style along with the newly patched fast upgrades so "wisely" put into the game by the same balance designers even allowing protoss more advantage by reaching 3/3/3 in like 15 minutes.

e) EMP too weak
It is too weak. It was overnerfed. This is also one of the reasons why Protoss suddenly are *#!!*% all Terrans late game - the huge mass archon zealot collosus ball .... now EMPs miss half the archons because of the reduced radius.

f) forge fast expand vs zerg
Just wrong. It's not too powerful vs Zerg. It's just a good opening like it was in brood war.

G) nydus worm too inconsistent
Zergs don't use it enough, just like Terrans did not use ghosts as much a while ago + nukes, and Protoss barely used warp prisms. Zergs just haven't added it into their play yet, it's not a balance problem at all.

If you're saying it's too inconsistent or agreeing, then you might as well say that about nukes and warp prisms and buff those too right?

So yes, my advice to blizzard right now and specifically David Kim would be to
a) Keep track of the highest level of play and what is going on in the metagame because you clearly are not right now.
b) Stop reading forum posts from bronze leaguers or "casuals". We want the game balanced, not protoss domination due to their whining.

Thanks for reading!!!!!
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LgNavilo #597
LgNavilo
1/25/2012
@VTavilo: also, I forgot to add, stop buying into the protoss "underpowered" people. Protoss already can allin or macro Terran to death, same vs Zerg...one problem is that with WoL unlike Brood War, you guys at Blizzard inadvertently messed up the racial identities of P/T.

Terran is almost better off being more aggressive in WoL than in Brood war, where Terran was known as the turtle defensive race.

In SC2, the reason a lot of protosses still lose or are not playing up to snuff is because they haven't realized Protoss is actually the turtle defensive macro race in SC2...especially with warp-in/forcefields.

It would be great if in HOTS, the racial identities are put back in line, especially for Terran being the more defensive race...but I highly doubt warp-in will change, or much else. Just thought I'd add that, as I feel most people don't understand you're better off being defensive with protoss and getting that death ball so you can abuse warp-in, rather than just only attacking.
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Geir #924
Geir
1/25/2012
Awsome. Thanks for the feedback response. I too would like to see the carrier fixed instead of removed. According to Liquipedia, the carrier has never been nerfed or buffed directly, which leads me to wonder a couple of things. What role was it intended to fill? Why doesn't it fill that role? Why can't the standard "small tweaks" approach be used to fix it? Thanks again, and looking forward to Heart of the Swarm!
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LivingLegend #571
LivingLegend
1/25/2012
hmm, no comments on zerg, aside from larva injection not being a disadvantage to other races. I personally find as zerg, this one of the less important problems posed to us atm, but apparently i'm delusional since we're preforming well on all skill levels...
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FoxX #304
FoxX
1/25/2012
I think carriers should be fixed instead of taken out in HoTS, the difference that has been noticed by many people between SC2 carriers and SC1 carriers is the way interceptors are launched, in SC1 carriers instantly launched all the interceptors they had in them, which made them more dangerous, in SC2, interceptors are launched one by one, even with the upgrade on them it's not the same ''swarm'' effect you got with the old carriers.

like I once heard, think of it this way, if you piss off a hive, bees are not going to come out one by one, that would give you the chance to escape with only a couple of stings, however, bees come out by thousands, which just screws you all over...
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xORaYNoR #625
xORaYNoR
1/21/2012
great job david kim :) love this game and I am reserving HoTS immediately, ASAP please finish that game soon as possible and release the beta key to me :) I NEED IT!!!!
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JakeShifter #727
JakeShifter
1/20/2012
I think the game is pretty excellently ballanced so far, but in my opinion, SCV's Probes and the little zerg ones (cnt remember any zerg names) should have their mineral costs dramatically reduced. their current price makes it hard to come back from a barely won invasion where you have to use your collectors as battle units. i also think that you should be able to research a downgrade in cost for the Marine and the Zealot should start out at 75 min period. the later game Zerg should also be slightly upped in both cost and money, it's easy to scare off a computor opponent with a few large units, but not so easy to scare off a human one when you have three Thors a few vikings and twenty marines, and they have ten Ultralisks, a few brood lords and an uncountable amount of zerglings.
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Branches #121
Branches
1/25/2012
@JakeShifter: i never thought about it that way. Your arguments are so cogent and your competitive insight has really swayed me on this issue.
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TeeMoney #479
TeeMoney
1/25/2012
@JakeShifter: that is a very dumb idea.... zealots should stay the same. they are a very powerful unit. a group of early zealots can take on a hoard of lings. as for lowering the cost of workers.....thats just u being a !@#$%...lol
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MrDatuh #268
MrDatuh
1/20/2012
ok, i got two question and its hard to find a answer to it . -_-
how do you make a team legit ?
do you register it or just make it big?
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Verflucht #233
Verflucht
1/21/2012
Sign up for Tournaments.
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MistaBlue #272
MistaBlue
1/20/2012
There is simply no reason that MULEs should not have a cooldown or something that penalizes a Terran player for not paying attention to his energy levels. If I miss a larva inject that can lose a game for me. Protoss needs to pick and choose when to use Chrono Boosts on specific tech or production. With MULEs there's no need to pick and choose when to MULE.
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iSmack #150
iSmack
1/19/2012
For the Larvae Spawning, why not incorporate a "linking" system. What I mean with "linking" system is that, when a Queen is spawned, she has an ability that will attach her (Not physically) to a Hatch. So everytime the player selects his/her Queens, and presses the hotkey to spawn Larvae, the Queens will automatically know which Hatch, they need to go inject at. Multiple Queens can be linked with the Hatch. This way, the fact that the player MUST still pay attention to his/her Larvae spawning, but it's less of a hassle.
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GodOfThunder #189
GodOfThunder
1/19/2012
Fix TvP.
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Scizzor #840
Scizzor
1/17/2012
Spawning larva isn't really that hard when you get it down, especially when using hot keys. For example, I always set my queen to squad 2 as soon as she finishes. For the rest of the game all you have to do is click '2' (to select the queen) 'V' (the hot key for spawning larva) and then click your Hatchery/Lair/Hive on the mini map. You don't even have to stop watching the battle!
As long as you can remember to do it every 40 seconds or so, it's just two keys and a click away from mass larva! :D
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TylenoL #736
TylenoL
1/18/2012
@Scizzor: Try doing that in the late game when you have 4 or 5 different hatcheries that all need larva =\
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MistaBlue #272
MistaBlue
1/20/2012
@Scizzor: The fact that I need to constantly be aware of that and will be penalized with less production if I forget proves that MULEs are overpowered. What's the penalty for Terran forgetting to MÜLE when he has a ton of energy sitting around? Nothing, he just makes two mules!
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Caturix #712
Caturix
1/14/2012
prodox mutalisks counter void rays and there pretty inexpensive and hydras are even less i think its fine how it is because void rays are pretty weak
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House #417
House
1/14/2012
If you ask me, I think Protoss Philosophy should be a new one, yet one very strong, "With a great cost, get greater power" for example the Archon.

Something "interesting" has to be done with the Protoss, they are very proud of themselves, for them, the real glory is to die in battle, and the only one who does that is the Zealot and the Archon, all the other units are some terran or zerg variations. Shame on you.
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Rockstar #162
Rockstar
1/14/2012
Prodox you should change your skill level. Voids are fine.
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Prodox #904
Prodox
1/13/2012
FIX MASS VOIDING. terran can counter that with mass marines since they are light, you can make a lot, and they are ranged, for zerg and toss though, the units that specialize in killing void rays are too expensive to mass and thus are easy to pick off by mass voiding without sustaining too much damage. something to dramatically weaken the voidray would be too much but putting a limit on the amount you can make (like how you could only have 1 mothership) would be helpful for toss and zerg players. At the moment the only way to not die from mass voids is to not allow them to void up in the first place, but that is difficult. if anyone at blizzard could think of a reasonable solution the this problem, it would be appreciated
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HanEX #191
HanEX
1/11/2012
nerf terran thx.
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Ghostface #166
Ghostface
1/9/2012
i play protoss and anyone who complains about snipe being op might want to rethink at least snipe takes more control then stim A click. i def like the emp nerf over a snipe nerf. Snipe is effective if the player useing it makes it effective Emp is dumb because its only op vs 1 race i wouldnt have a problem with it if it just drained energy not shild considering zerg dosnt have shild for EMP to drain the move favors vs 1 race way to much i will rarly see a big emp hit on infestors compared to HT's
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Kunell #176
Kunell
1/10/2012
@Ghostface: u realize u sound a bit prejudiced in that although u mention how emp effects toss, u fail to remark on how snipe effects zerg and how terran might need these in order to stand up against either armies.
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Omegascithe #386
Omegascithe
1/5/2012
Blizz, can you please make a unit that can hit air in the robo facility? That'd be great, because the best thing other than them is stalker and the aa is only good at taking out light bio units (e.g. Mutas). That'd be awesome!
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DanTheMan #896
DanTheMan
1/2/2012
i play zarg a lot and the qeen is hard to mange it should have a atoue cast
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lucajo #826
lucajo
1/6/2012
@DanTheMan: Dan dont QQ. Nobody likes a whiney !@#$%. I play zerg all the time when I used to play and had no problem managing my larve. its every 20-30 seconds from when I was playing. So get a timer to make sure you spawn at the right time
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Shark #465
Shark
1/17/2012
@lucajo: You've just been trolled.
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Zerstoerer #255
Zerstoerer
1/2/2012
Giving protoss a robotics unit that can hit air would give us more options though potentially make us op i think. just consider it blizz (feel free to remove replicant in favor of this hypothetical unit :D)
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drtoucan #842
drtoucan
12/29/2011
Good article. Are complaints about the game can make it sound so simple. But Starcraft is a complicated piece of work, and we typically look at it from the point of our race. Me for example, hated when fungal growth was nerfed.
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BodaciousVA #573
BodaciousVA
12/28/2011
"Easy to learn, Difficult to master."
=)
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RING #117
RING
12/27/2011
PvT = protoss have no idea what terran build once they wall in and it takes forever to get observer...we need to make them from nexus =)
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drtoucan #842
drtoucan
12/29/2011
Do observers really take that long? Also the early scout with a probe can usually tell you what they are up to for early game. If they change their strategy mid game the observers re usually ready.