StarCraft® II

Mutas need a nerf bat to the face

Before the speed, acceleration, and regen buff. If I saw mutas I would get pheonixs. Micro them a little with my army and I win. Ever since the damn buff I need to have perfect micro with my pheonixs AND army, not to mention I have to get a fleet beacon which costs a ton of minerals and gas, and then phoenix upgrade which also costs a ton of minerals and gas.

I know mutas got buff because of spore crawler buff and because of mines. Mutas were already insanely good against protoss that didn't have a stargate.Either give pheonix extra damage against mutas Or slow down their acceleration speed at least. They can keep the regen and top speed because of crawlers and mines but acceleration speed needs to be nerfed.
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I think that if Phoenix cost 125 minerals and 75 gas and cost 5 seconds less time to produce, they would be more viable if you need them on the fly against Mutalisks.
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even if I spend the time to tech into blink stalkers I can't possibly make the amount I would need to defend against mutas. If I try to make cannons I'd need to build at least 2 pylons to power each group of cannons. RABBLE RABBLE rage
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I think my biggest issue personally with mutas is that it feels like we have phoenix that hard counter them but that is all. Even when I have blink and upgraded stalkers it feels that i can't really engage them out anywhere in the open because i have to have all my stalkers focus their mutas and then their ground units (typically lings or roaches) just shread the stalkers. And of course they keep us in our base forever and its a matchup we can have difficulties with securing 3rds/4ths.

The problem is nerfing mutas will put zerg in a pretty bad place as the meta game stands with terran. I really just don't know what can be done to really fix/balance out the issue personally. Buffing stalkers against air units maybe but i don't really know if that is the right direction to go. I guess trying to get more archons/storms but still the mobility of mutas just exploit the "deathball" playstyle of protoss (something im finding increasingly boring).
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10/23/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Bribe
I think that if Phoenix cost 125 minerals and 75 gas and cost 5 seconds less time to produce, they would be more viable if you need them on the fly against Mutalisks.


I like this idea. Seems balanced too considering the fact that mutas got buffed more than Phoenix in HOTS.

Also, it would make the Phoenix a better counter to Voids in PvP early game which would be cool because phoenix play is more fun to watch than voidray vs stalker in the early game.
Edited by PrimeTemplar on 10/23/2013 9:31 PM PDT
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yeah, fleet bacons are pretty expensive. (and delicious)
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Anything zerg can throw out which protoss sees coming and can adequately prepare for, is utterly worthless. Protoss has the hard counters. And I mean like, sh!t on the zerg kind of hard counter.

Immortals destroy roaches, colossi to hydras, zealots to zerglings, phoenix to muta, void ray to corrupter, immortal/archon to ultra, tempest to broodlord, high templar to infestor, colossi/HT for swarm host. And sentries to increase effectiveness of all protoss units.

Therefore zergs have faster tech switches, and protoss has observers, phoenixes, and hallucination buff for scouting.

Mutas are balanced.
ZvP is balanced.
Stop 2 base all-inning every game.
Scout sometime.
Edited by MuphynMan on 10/23/2013 10:56 PM PDT
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Stop 2 base all-inning every game.
Scout sometime.
it doesnt matter if you scout 30 mutas coming out at once when you can only make 3 phoenix at a time. what is hard to understand
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Mutas are balanced.
ZvP is balanced.
Stop 2 base all-inning every game.
Scout sometime

gee opening stargate every single game sure is fun
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Lets look at their pro's and con's:
Pros - fast, regen, massable, stackable, bounce shot.
Cons - fragile, terrible dps (per muta), costly.

Though regen and speed is nice, massing them, especially early on, is just a giant money pit for a Zerg. It leaves us with little to no gas (sometimes even without minerals) which means your looking at a pretty heavily ling supplemented army with them. 5 Mutas can't really kill anything worth value in any timely fashion, so if you do scout Spire, expect at least ten.

For less than 20 Mutas:
This is nothing stalkers can't deal with, esp. if they have blink. Also, many Zerg's neglect air upgrades since they just use them for harass, not fighting. Favour armour upgrades because 1 armour upgrade = 3 armour upgrades vs. Mutas (glave bounces 3 times, armour affects each of those bounces).

For more than 20 Mutas:
20 Mutas is 40 supply! And that supply his WORTHLESS head on vs. any army that has any kind of AA. Simply put, Mutas are for hit and run, not directly engaging. If he's got 40 supply of mutas, he's on 3 or 4 bases, probably saturated which leaves him with maybe 80 supply left for more army. If he's at 40 supply muta on 2 base, your bad and deserve to lose, as that would take forever and he'd have no money to spend on other units.
So if your opponent does have that many Mutas, what do? FORCE AN ENGAGEMENT. Make like 2-3 Archons with your units and march over at his base. That should be easily attainable by the time your opponent has that many Mutas out. He'll have no choice but to throw his Muta's at it for extra dps (in which case the Archons will like 4 shot a clump of them), or he'll be battling a Protoss army with a huge supply disadvantage which = insta lose.

TLDR: Mutas are not broken, your reactions need work and you'll shut them down every time.
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Mark, Mutas don't directly engage when you try to force it, they simply base race with your units and all the blink in the world can only get off lucky shots against a fleet of them. Phoenix are the only counter to this kind of play.

Yeah, I honestly don't know why I get these kind of opponents even though I am in silver league, but there we go.
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If he's at 40 supply muta on 2 base, your bad and deserve to lose, as that would take forever and he'd have no money to spend on other units.
So if your opponent does have that many Mutas, what do? FORCE AN ENGAGEMENT. Make like 2-3 Archons with your units and march over at his base.

"What do" indeed. Any competent player will be active enough with the Mutalisks to notice you leaving your base, then take the opportunity to attack tech and Pylons. If you continue across the map, they've already had at least one minute where the Zerg army is getting bigger and the Protoss army is staying the same.

If you turn around to fight the Mutalisks and save your base, the Mutas will just fly away. It's a lose-lose situation without Phoenix.

Not that I think Mutas need a nerf, but it's incredibly hard for Protoss to deal with a Mutalisk tech switch later in the game. When your opponent is building Hydralisks and denying scouts, the last thing you're going to want to build 3 Stargates.
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Recently I have been practicing PvZ lategame and you can afford (and should have)2 robos, 3 stargates and a templar archives by the 17 minute mark for tech switches. If you reach this point, all the zerg can do is throw all their money at you and accomplish nothing. If protoss can get onto 3 bases with colossi, then he will live. Phoenix are THE hard counter to mutas, even before anion pulse crystals... and when you get that, I've killed literally 25 mutas with 7 phoenix. 2500/2500 rss and 50 supply losing to 1050/700 and 14... I felt like Terran bio vs gateway units. It's ridiculous.
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Stop 2 base all-inning every game.
Scout sometime.
it doesnt matter if you scout 30 mutas coming out at once when you can only make 3 phoenix at a time. what is hard to understand


Stop 2 base all-inning every game.
Scout sometime.
it doesnt matter if you scout 30 mutas coming out at once when you can only make 3 phoenix at a time. what is hard to understand


Spire takes 100 seconds to build
Mutas take 33 seconds to build

You have over 2 minutes to scout (with the best scouting options in the game) and react to something you should be expecting anyway
what is hard to understand
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Spire takes 100 seconds to build
Mutas take 33 seconds to build

You have over 2 minutes to scout (with the best scouting options in the game) and react to something you should be expecting anyway
lol? zerg makes a spire every game vs protoss for corruptors and the THREAT of a muta switch. The only way of knowing is literally seeing no other gas units AT ALL and a single evo and that's only a tell early game. You CANNOT KNOW when it is coming late game, it is just a continuous possibility that you could lose at any time. gtfo
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"What do" indeed. Any competent player will be active enough with the Mutalisks to notice you leaving your base, then take the opportunity to attack tech and Pylons. If you continue across the map, they've already had at least one minute where the Zerg army is getting bigger and the Protoss army is staying the same.

Like I said, Mutas have terrible dps. Even in large qtys. If they base race a Protoss army with just Mutas, they lose. Move out, expect to lose a few structures, wreck his 4th and 3rd with your +40 army supply it shouldn't be a problem, and if no 4th, his natural. Mass recall home, shoo Mutas away if he hasn't already left, expand while he's rebuilding, rebuild tech and make another push before he can get his eco back. It's hard for a zerg to remax when they just lost 2 bases, eco and because they just lost 2-3 hatcheries to inject for the larva required to max.
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lol? zerg makes a spire every game vs protoss for corruptors and the THREAT of a muta switch. The only way of knowing is literally seeing no other gas units AT ALL and a single evo and that's only a tell early game. You CANNOT KNOW when it is coming late game, it is just a continuous possibility that you could lose at any time. gtfo


Lemme know when you're done crying.

Until then, I'll keep talkin starcraft. A muta switch pre-max supply will come when he's making no gas units at all really, and you can capitalize on this by just attacking.

After maxing out, zerg needs a LOT of gas to make the muta switch work. You should know about when zerg is maxed out. Again, this comes down to scouting. If you can't tell this, you're just bad, so rage more. But your late game comp should sh!t on mutas. Late game toss is colossi, void ray, archon, zealot. And a couple high templar. Void rays are really beefy, so they last awhile while archons wreck them, being beefy themselves.

Keep in mind, zerg stockpiling all that gas after maxing, you should have your own bank rolling yourself. That is, unless you're bad. And judging by your approach to this situation, this is the case. Throw down a bunch of cannons and stop b!tching already. You're my favorite kind of person to stomp on ladder.
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10/24/2013 04:43 PMPosted by MuphynMan
Keep in mind, zerg stockpiling all that gas after maxing, you should have your own bank rolling yourself. That is, unless you're bad. And judging by your approach to this situation, this is the case. Throw down a bunch of cannons and stop b!tching already. You're my favorite kind of person to stomp on ladder.
Ok, hold on, I'm gonna put down 7 stargates with my bank so I can make phoenix really really fast for the muta switch and.. owait I just spend 1050/1050 on production buildings. Time for the ultraliskuuuuuuuuu!

10/24/2013 04:43 PMPosted by MuphynMan
But your late game comp should sh!t on mutas.
You know you're not supposed to fight the army with your mutas right?
Edited by Burnthesky on 10/24/2013 6:44 PM PDT
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Am I the only one not getting this? Late game Muta is never a problem unless you are making the wrong kind of end game army.

Skytoss (Void Ray/Carrier), Archons or Colossus and HT are what you should be aiming for. If you are relying on things like Blink Stalkers and Immortals, of course you will get owned by tech switches. With a Skytoss composition with HT, you can effectively counter any Zerg army. After watching some replays of mine, I've even see Zergs leave despite having the resources to fight on beacuse they know it's futile.

If an opponent goes mass Muta, just go and kill their mining bases and main, then Recall to one of your own Nexus to defend it.
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Am I the only one not getting this? Late game Muta is never a problem unless you are making the wrong kind of end game army.

Skytoss (Void Ray/Carrier), Archons or Colossus and HT are what you should be aiming for. If you are relying on things like Blink Stalkers and Immortals, of course you will get owned by tech switches. With a Skytoss composition with HT, you can effectively counter any Zerg army. After watching some replays of mine, I've even see Zergs leave despite having the resources to fight on beacuse they know it's futile.

If an opponent goes mass Muta, just go and kill their mining bases and main, then Recall to one of your own Nexus to defend it.
You won't have any nexus left and there will be 6 hatcheries building around the map while you lose the rest of your buildings and you can't find theirs.
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