StarCraft® II

Mutas need a nerf bat to the face

Posts: 1,340
Before the speed, acceleration, and regen buff. If I saw mutas I would get pheonixs. Micro them a little with my army and I win. Ever since the damn buff I need to have perfect micro with my pheonixs AND army, not to mention I have to get a fleet beacon which costs a ton of minerals and gas, and then phoenix upgrade which also costs a ton of minerals and gas.

I know mutas got buff because of spore crawler buff and because of mines. Mutas were already insanely good against protoss that didn't have a stargate.Either give pheonix extra damage against mutas Or slow down their acceleration speed at least. They can keep the regen and top speed because of crawlers and mines but acceleration speed needs to be nerfed.


I think a general rule is to never say you lost a game to imbalance. When you can play a perfect game and make no mistakes and lose because of balance, then you are probably Grand Master player.

If your not Grand Master you probably did not lose because of balance, and if you watch your replay honestly you will probably see why you lost 10 times over.

If you go and just say I lost because mutas are OP, nerf them. Then you are robbing yourself of an opportunity to get better and understand why you lost and fix it.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,153
If you keep chronoboosting phoenixes, you can delay with stalkers and templars until you get enough.

Yeah, it's really hard, but so is defending other things (sentry immortal in WoL, immortal all in PvT, etc).
Reply Quote
Posts: 366
I scout and know when to scout. I know if I attack zerg and all I see are lings and spine crawlers he is saving up gas for mutas. There is only one problem to that, I would have to scout that THEN make the tech switch which is after cybercore. If I go robo to get observer to get the scout and I see spire its already too late. He'll have mutas in my base before I get my pheonix's out. Let say however I hold off the mutas. I have stalkers in my main and natural. Most zerg save upto 600 or 700 gas for mutas. If I put my stalkers all in one base, I'd have to just live with the fact that hes going to fly over to where I don't have defenses. To fix that you'll say something like cannons. Okay I build pylons AND cannons. Now I have less minerals for a ground army.

I'm not saying Pheonix's aren't a counter for zerg. However, because of the speed buff and accerlation buff, if there is an engagement with ground and air. I have to choose which ones to micro. Since the buff you HAVE to micro your pheonixs. If I'm microing air, his ground units *##!%%#@ my ground my units. Without colossi, immortals, or even storm just hydra's and lings or even hydras and roaches decimate protoss ground. Couldn't get colossi because of the gas needed for pheonixs.

I'm also not asking for a HUGE nerf. Just lower the acceleration or buff pheonixs by lowering the cost. Late game isn't the issue. If its 20 minutes in I have the buildings I need to make the pheonixs. However because mutas can move SO fast now. If I'm not micro'ing my pheonixs spot on then they die because I got to close to mutas or to close to hydras chasing mutas. God tired hope all that made sense.
Reply Quote
Posts: 366
Also people you do understand that whenever someone says "If a grandmaster can do it then its balanced." or "You are not Grandmaster so you are a noob about balance." Is actually ignorant right?

Grandmasters have probably practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced to BARELY make something work. I have seen so many pro games where the smallest mistake in micro cost someone the whole match and engagement. Just because someone who makes it work doesn't mean its balanced.

If every Starcraft tournament was won by protoss, you would call it imbalanced that protoss is winning because its overpowered. When in fact majority of it is from the player? This is a game but to defend against a strategy you are asking me to have PRO level gaming ability? Unless I have pro level gaming ability I can't speak on balance issues? That is really ignorant. Starcraft is dying because of this very fact. *sigh* Rant over. Tired. Sometimes things are just imbalanced. Instead of crying about a persons ingame rank think to yourself for a moment, "Could this person be actually giving sound information?" Just because its barely defendable doesn't make it balanced.
Reply Quote
Posts: 793
10/23/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Burnthesky
it doesnt matter if you scout 30 mutas coming out at once when you can only make 3 phoenix at a time. what is hard to understand

If the muta number is 30+ when you first scout it, you've done something horribly wrong. Nobody produces 30 mutalisks on a whim; that is 3000 / 3000 in minerals and gas. That's absurd.

Typical first number is 10 or less, unless the Z was able to bank copious amounts of gas. Those first mutas need to immediately go to harass, to deal damage and gain map control, before the toss counters them.

If the cloud gets to 30+, you wasted the time you had to scout and counter them.

10/25/2013 12:30 AMPosted by Blaze
This is a game but to defend against a strategy you are asking me to have PRO level gaming ability?

Only if you are facing a pro gamer. I would remind you that your opponent is, usually, the same level as you. That means that you need to only defend against another bronze; someone who lacks a GM level muta control.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,221
10/23/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Blaze
Before the speed, acceleration, and regen buff. If I saw mutas I would get pheonixs. Micro them a little with my army and I win. Ever since the damn buff I need to have perfect micro with my pheonixs AND army, not to mention I have to get a fleet beacon which costs a ton of minerals and gas, and then phoenix upgrade which also costs a ton of minerals and gas.

Before the Muta buffs, my opponent would always just make them useless by making Phoenixes. Ever since the buff, my 100/100 Mutas can actually be worth the cost, causing my opponent to have to use some effort to fight them.

Really, I do think Mutas are kind of strong against Protoss (heck I win with them all the time against Golds), but Protoss can also deal with them fairly well with timings and positioning (and Phoenixes of course). I beat Mutas quite a bit in Gold as Protoss as much as I win with them as Zerg.

The tech switch in the late game is hard to deal with sometimes -- you gotta make sure you have the production structures available to make units when you need them.
Edited by NinjaDuckBob on 10/25/2013 4:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 10,802
Typical first number is 10 or less, unless the Z was able to bank copious amounts of gas. Those first mutas need to immediately go to harass, to deal damage and gain map control, before the toss counters them.

If the cloud gets to 30+, you wasted the time you had to scout and counter them.
none of this is true late game
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,340
Also people you do understand that whenever someone says "If a grandmaster can do it then its balanced." or "You are not Grandmaster so you are a noob about balance." Is actually ignorant right?

Grandmasters have probably practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced to BARELY make something work. I have seen so many pro games where the smallest mistake in micro cost someone the whole match and engagement. Just because someone who makes it work doesn't mean its balanced.

If every Starcraft tournament was won by protoss, you would call it imbalanced that protoss is winning because its overpowered. When in fact majority of it is from the player? This is a game but to defend against a strategy you are asking me to have PRO level gaming ability? Unless I have pro level gaming ability I can't speak on balance issues? That is really ignorant. Starcraft is dying because of this very fact. *sigh* Rant over. Tired. Sometimes things are just imbalanced. Instead of crying about a persons ingame rank think to yourself for a moment, "Could this person be actually giving sound information?" Just because its barely defendable doesn't make it balanced.


I totally agree , that you should never say if a GM can do it that its balanced.

I however said nothing of the like. I was just stating that if you are not GM then you are not losing because of balance, and if you think you are , then you are probably losing out on opportunity to actually learn from your mistakes and improve.

These GM players are GM because they execute everything at a high level, macro,micro and strategies. And they have a great fundamental understanding of the Game. If you had the micro/macro, and understanding as much as a GM you would be a GM also. Im not saying that GM's are the only ones who can comment on balance, or that the game is balanced well.

All I am saying is that balance is not going to hold you back, so even though something might be unfair or unbalanced, it will never be a reason you lost at lower levels. You can watch a replay where you might just say, he had XXX number of mutas and its unfair, gg I lost. But never mind the fact you made XXX number of mistakes that game.

I see games where someone is like I lost to mutas, omg its not fair. Then watch the replay and they lose like 2 Colossus super early to a bad rally, then at that point you are playing from behind. Don't be so hasty to say balance is the problem when you can easily overcome balance in lower leagues with better skill and by improving yourself.

That is all I am saying. Good luck to you.
Edited by Paragon on 10/25/2013 5:26 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 366
Well what I'm saying is that its not positioning or anything. Mutas are just too difficult to deal with at the "same level". Its not bad positioning because I watch all my replays before deleting them to take notes of everything and try to be objective. I have even used mutas against some friends and we all agreed that the buff they got to defend against mines and spore crawlers was a bit much. Even for lower leagues its still a bit much. I can force field and micro my ground army, however if I dont micro the pheonixs they die because they get to close to the mutas. Also I do understand that things work everywhere. If we give pheonixs a buff then they can be an issue for early game harass against zerg and blah blah. I understand that changing one thing actually changes EVERYTHING. Which is why I'm not asking for a damage buff or anything. Just that the acceleration speed was lowered. Not the top speed, just the speed at which they go from 0 to 60 so that I can ACTUALLY micro my pheonixs. Our at least make their acceleration an upgradable. Its just difficult to deal with those units when they really dont have to do anything. They can run away safely, just make sure not to dive in and even if they do they can steal run and regen.
Reply Quote
Posts: 793
10/25/2013 10:12 PMPosted by Blaze
Not the top speed, just the speed at which they go from 0 to 60 so that I can ACTUALLY micro my pheonixs.

With proper awareness and response time, you already can micro against mutas. The number of phoenixes you need to counter 20 mutas is maybe a quarter of that. Nothing says you cannot stay active with your phoenixes the same way the Z is active with his mutas.

If they are harassing, keep flying your phoenixes around your base, preventing them from doing any serious damage. If they fly away, take map control and go on patrol. I guarantee you, when you figure out how to micro your phoenixes, it becomes infinitely more difficult for the Z to make any use of his mutas.

To put out 20+ mutas, that is an enormous investment of resources, and SUPPLY. You only need fraction the number of phoenixes to counter them, which means that if you are macroing properly, your main army should be much bigger.

Is any of the above easy? Ofc not. It isn't even suppose to be easy. Protoss, like any other race, needs to work to win. I'm quite serious; every time I see one these threads, I hear toss just wanting to have a free lunch. It, apparently, is not enough that you have the best hard counters in the game, they need to be made EVEN harder.
Reply Quote
Posts: 366
lol the best hard counters are all gimmicks. Hydra, ling will kill everything if no colossi or templar on the field. If there are corrupters then we have to completely go with templars. If the storms don;t land right or the positioning is off we lose. I'm not asking for it to be EASY I'm asking it to be reasonable. I've played zerg and I know that at least 60% of the micro goes into larvae inject. If you keep missing it you will lose because you won't have the army. Its tough to keep injecting since its not easy however that is a inconvenience and a hassel. Nothing is stoping you from injecting. If its just mutas versus my pheonixes I will win everytime. I'm not talking about a 1v1 situation though. Its aggravating when he has a whole army against my whole army and I can't micro because I have 80 gimmicky things to manage. All our units are basically used to counter 1 unit. Thats it. Zealots for lings, immortals for roachers, colossi for ground army countrol (especially hydras) Pheonixs for mutas, templars if they get corrupters.

In all honesty if the food count was capped at 100 instead of 200, I would think it would make this game a TON better. Instead of critical mass there would be actual decision on how many workers to army you have and what type of units you have to fight his composition. However that isn't going to happen.
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
I hate that the idea that 'if you didnt play perfectly and there was something you COULD have done to prevent it then the problem is player skill not balance'.

Mutalisks are way easier to use against protoss than any of the counters TO mutalisks. The Zerg player doesnt have to play perfectly while the Protoss player does in this situation. THATS what's imbalanced. Mutalisks are so fast and have regeneration that they are very forgiving to micro mistakes.
Reply Quote
Posts: 793
10/26/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Blaze
Hydra, ling will kill everything if no colossi or templar on the field.

So get colossi; or just get sentries. Seriously, I would love for hydra / ling to be that OP.

10/26/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Blaze
If the storms don;t land right or the positioning is off we lose. I'm not asking for it to be EASY I'm asking it to be reasonable.

So, in other words, if you engage in a bad position or mismicro your units, you lose? Hate to break it to you but that is quite common for all three races.

Rest of your post just sounds like a bunch of hyperbolic excuses so I'm not even gonna try respond to it, but I will say that it is very confusing the way you find it distasteful that the game expects you to make the right units to counter the enemy units.

The way you say you need colossi / storm against a hydra army, or phoenixes against mutas, it all just strikes to me like you think you should be able to make a random assortment of units and be able to easily win with them. This is actually the very essence of SC2, or RTS in general; either scout and figure out what your opponent is doing, and get the right composition of units, or lose the game in a bad engagement.

Why should this not apply to you?
Edited by Indie on 10/27/2013 7:57 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 5
Mutalisks in zvp are there just to force a starport opening from the protoss. If you do get phoenix the composition of Collusus Phoenix,and later -> Collusus Voidray, is a powerful one. You can also try going templar tech and getting archons and storm fast, though this is a little risky.
Reply Quote
Posts: 953
10/26/2013 02:04 AMPosted by Indie
Not the top speed, just the speed at which they go from 0 to 60 so that I can ACTUALLY micro my pheonixs.

With proper awareness and response time, you already can micro against mutas. The number of phoenixes you need to counter 20 mutas is maybe a quarter of that. Nothing says you cannot stay active with your phoenixes the same way the Z is active with his mutas.



I think you missed the point of his post.

Microing Phoenix vs Mutas isn't hard......if that's the only thing you have to deal with. It's when they send the ling/hydra army to your front, then send the mutas to you min line. If I have Colossi/zealots/sentries, that's strong vs ling/roach/hydra, but still micro is required or else the colossi will get focused down. But, I can't pay that much attention to the fight at the front because 100% micro is being used on the Phoenix to keep them alive vs the muta flock in my min line.

If I miss micro my Phoenix and lose them, I can't reproduce them as quickly as the zerg can reproduce his mutas. And falling behind in the phoenix vs muta fight is a sure lose.

That's the main problem most Toss that aren't GM have with Zerg. Sure mutas are expensive, but so are Phoenix. So then why does my phoenix require all of my micro, but your mutas don't. That's the imbalance.

Add to that the fact that Mutas can regen health so quickly, while phoenix shields are rather slow...and trying to manage everything happening on the field at once is damn hard. And let's not forget that while I'm fighting off mutas in my min line, and lings/hydras at my front door, the zerg is expanding and tech switching at his base.

So he sees that I have a good number of Phoenix? Ok, Ultras + more lings or more hydra/roach. Because, unlike mutas, Phoenix are useless at anything other than fighting mutas. Mutas can harass, snipe units, attack buildings, etc. Phoenix can only harass workers if there are no Queens or spores laying around...
Reply Quote
Posts: 793
10/27/2013 09:05 AMPosted by ThatOneDude
I think you missed the point of his post.

I understand his point just fine; I'm just not as blind as he is. The OP only sees things from the protoss perspective.

... when they send the ling/hydra army to your front, then send the mutas to you min line. If I have Colossi/zealots/sentries, that's strong vs ling/roach/hydra, but still micro is required or else the colossi will get focused down. But, I can't pay that much attention to the fight at the front because 100% micro is being used on the Phoenix to keep them alive vs the muta flock in my min line.

This is the part the OP doesn't get; mutas are not an a-move unit. Attacking your front requires APM, target firing colossi requires APM, flanking your base and attacking the mineral line, again requires APM. Expanding behind it, requires even more APM. It is not just the P who needs to micro.

If the Z miss micro the mutas, he will lose them to the phoenix in a heart beat. I don't really care that they can be reproduced; that's too many resources lost that the Z could not afford to just throw away.

10/27/2013 09:05 AMPosted by ThatOneDude
So he sees that I have a good number of Phoenix? Ok, Ultras + more lings or more hydra/roach. Because, unlike mutas, Phoenix are useless at anything other than fighting mutas. Mutas can harass, snipe units, attack buildings, etc. Phoenix can only harass workers if there are no Queens or spores laying around...

The way to look at it; it is like a chess game. If the P scouts that mutas are on their way, he will produce phoenixes. Because phoenixes are so ridiculously good against mutas, the Z has two choices; either make corrupters to counter the phoenixes, or tech switch to ground forces.

The P needs to keep this in mind and not over produce phoenixes. If the muta number is below 20, fine, keep 5-6 phoenixes, and prepare for a tech switch. If the numbers grow, make a few more phoenixes, and if you scout corrupters, make void rays. The thing about Z air is that P never needs as many units in the air as the Z does; phoenixes and void rays are too good, which is lets you always keep a healthy ground army.

Toss players are always complaining about how "easy" it is for Z to tech switch. IMO, this is more a toss problem, actually, because the P have such hard counters to our units (e.g. muta vs. phoenix, or corrupter vs. void ray, or colossi vs. hydra) that it forces the Z to tech switch. It is literally the only way that we can win.

Which is why P and Z are forced into a kind of cat and mouse game, trying to force the other to over make units that the other can counter.
Edited by Indie on 10/27/2013 3:45 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,000
10/23/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Blaze
I know mutas got buff because of spore crawler buff and because of mines. Mutas were already insanely good against protoss that didn't have a stargate.Either give pheonix extra damage against mutas Or slow down their acceleration speed at least. They can keep the regen and top speed because of crawlers and mines but acceleration speed needs to be nerfed.

Actually mutas got buffed so they would be used more, especially against Terran, where Mutas almost became necessary due to the Medivac boosters, as they were not being used frequently near the end of WoL. They were fine in WoL; not too strong, not too weak, but actually balanced fairly, even at the pro level. It was a risk for someone to go Mutas, but if they did and it wasn't scouted/reacted to just right, the Zerg player could just win.

The problem is that they buffed regen (in and out of combat), and increased the speed, making things like stalkers awful against them.

With mutas actually being decent at fighting direct engagements (before they were terrible for it), the Zerg player can fight the protoss army directly with the Mutas, rather than not engaging unless they had a massive advantage in some way.

Currently, once the muta count gets high enough (around 20), they actually beat stalkers in equal numbers in a direct engagement unless there is some insanely good blink micro.
Edited by Asamu on 10/30/2013 12:20 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,000
10/27/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Indie
Toss players are always complaining about how "easy" it is for Z to tech switch. IMO, this is more a toss problem, actually, because the P have such hard counters to our units (e.g. muta vs. phoenix, or corrupter vs. void ray, or colossi vs. hydra) that it forces the Z to tech switch. It is literally the only way that we can win.


The reason Protoss have those hard counters is because Zerg don't have to spend significant resources on production... They only have to build tech and base structures, which means that the cost for the Protoss to be able to produce an army is significantly higher than it is for Zerg. With Protoss units generally being highly inefficient from a cost standpoint, and Zerg units generally being very efficient from a cost standpoint, you run into the problem that Protoss are stuck defensive if Zerg plays aggressively, or, if they decide to do an attack, before they have high supply, they have to know that the Zerg is going to be vulnerable to it.

Because Zerg can Tech switch easily, Protoss also has to have units that are excessively efficient against certain other units, such as the Immortal vs Roaches, and the Phoenix vs Mutas. If it wasn't necessary, such units wouldn't exist (Phoenixes are actually less efficient vs Corruptors than Mutas are against Phoenixes in a direct engagement though...). In turn, because Protoss has such hard counters, Zerg have to be able to tech switch relatively easily. It goes both ways, and is a problem with both races' design.

The match up revolves around compositions, and with Zerg being able to reach the ideal composition for a particular fight more easily than Protoss, they would have a massive advantage in the match up if the hard counters did not exist.

As a side note: Immortals aren't as strong as they are because of Mech, but because of Roaches, which in turn, is one of the reasons that Mech is not viable against Protoss (off topic I know, but it is worth pointing out).
Edited by Asamu on 10/30/2013 12:20 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 466
Despite that I do not like buffing protoss... Changing price of phoenix seems rational.

But terrans also have problems with mutas so... ;) I do not know - buff thor speed? (to 2.25)?
Edited by ThetaOptimus on 11/1/2013 6:53 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,199
I scout and know when to scout. I know if I attack zerg and all I see are lings and spine crawlers he is saving up gas for mutas. There is only one problem to that, I would have to scout that THEN make the tech switch which is after cybercore. If I go robo to get observer to get the scout and I see spire its already too late. He'll have mutas in my base before I get my pheonix's out. Let say however I hold off the mutas. I have stalkers in my main and natural. Most zerg save upto 600 or 700 gas for mutas. If I put my stalkers all in one base, I'd have to just live with the fact that hes going to fly over to where I don't have defenses. To fix that you'll say something like cannons. Okay I build pylons AND cannons. Now I have less minerals for a ground army.

I'm not saying Pheonix's aren't a counter for zerg. However, because of the speed buff and accerlation buff, if there is an engagement with ground and air. I have to choose which ones to micro. Since the buff you HAVE to micro your pheonixs. If I'm microing air, his ground units *##!%%#@ my ground my units. Without colossi, immortals, or even storm just hydra's and lings or even hydras and roaches decimate protoss ground. Couldn't get colossi because of the gas needed for pheonixs.

I'm also not asking for a HUGE nerf. Just lower the acceleration or buff pheonixs by lowering the cost. Late game isn't the issue. If its 20 minutes in I have the buildings I need to make the pheonixs. However because mutas can move SO fast now. If I'm not micro'ing my pheonixs spot on then they die because I got to close to mutas or to close to hydras chasing mutas. God tired hope all that made sense.


So Protoss has the resources to fight against Mutas fine, but you don't have the mechanics to utilize phoenix properly... and we should buff phoenix >.<
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]