StarCraft® II

PLEASE explain PvP for me

Posts: 85
I just don't understand this damn depressing matchup. I just don't. Explain to me how I'm supposed to open, expand and scout without losing to absolutely EVERYTHING. Because every time I think I've figured it out I just get roflstomped by another one of the 87 allin/cheese/macro cheese builds. like seriously, I'm playing against different builds every time.

http://drop.sc/363723
If anybody has the time, pls take a look at how I lost this game. Am I missing something huge? Because I've played every race and every matchup up to diamond except for this one. It's by far the most illogical and retarded matchup in the game.

Alternatively if you know an easy cheese buildorder (that isn't blink stalkers or DT) and works up to mid-master or higher I'm very interested.
Edited by IlIlIlIIIlll on 10/30/2013 7:43 AM PDT
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Posts: 95
A few things...Im at the top of gold, so I am below your league and I think pvp is one of those matchups that I also haven't completely figured out in some ways but I'll give you my thoughts on the game.

Your early build was pretty solid except I was very confused by your use of chrono. You chrono'd the probes once then you went up to 100% on your nexus @345. You didn't use any chrono after that until 5:00 when you were getting out some stalkers. I think that put you a few workers behind in the early game. Next, after the 3rd stalker is finished, I think you should be moving across the map, not waiting for stalkers 4/5. (5 got supply blocked, but that happens).

Once you had contained him in his base with that early push and you saw the 4 zealot warpins he is doing some kind of 4-gate. Mostly this means that since you were doing a 2 gate you had a potential tech advantage...

When you realized your 6-8 stalker pressure wasn't going to do anything you expanded and threw down a robo and a 3rd gate...both of these I typically agree with. The biggest problem is with that many early stalkers that did nothing and knowing his tech is going to be delayed I think blink-stalkers was a better tech path, but lets ignore that.

Next you had a superior army, honestly you could of pressed into his base with your stalker numbers at that point but even so. When you commit to that many stalkers I really think you should be the one owning the watch towers. He had to commit to a bunch of zealots to stay alive. If you are holding the watch tower that bilnk into the main doesn't do nearly as much damage.

Honestly, I was pretty surprised you lost the game also. There were points in the game where you were 20-30 supply ahead, 2 base vs 1 ... You had a slight upgrade advantage (slight! you started your upgrades so late you had +1 attack and he had 0 so it was only silghtly). The biggest thing to me was you didn't take advantage of what advantages you had in the game...economy/tech/upgrades. You didn't use chronoboost hardly at all. Your natural was destroyed with 100% chrono ... twice. Your main sat at 75 energy the entire game.
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Posts: 85
A few things...Im at the top of gold, so I am below your league and I think pvp is one of those matchups that I also haven't completely figured out in some ways but I'll give you my thoughts on the game.

Your early build was pretty solid except I was very confused by your use of chrono. You chrono'd the probes once then you went up to 100% on your nexus @345. You didn't use any chrono after that until 5:00 when you were getting out some stalkers. I think that put you a few workers behind in the early game. Next, after the 3rd stalker is finished, I think you should be moving across the map, not waiting for stalkers 4/5. (5 got supply blocked, but that happens).

Once you had contained him in his base with that early push and you saw the 4 zealot warpins he is doing some kind of 4-gate. Mostly this means that since you were doing a 2 gate you had a potential tech advantage...

When you realized your 6-8 stalker pressure wasn't going to do anything you expanded and threw down a robo and a 3rd gate...both of these I typically agree with. The biggest problem is with that many early stalkers that did nothing and knowing his tech is going to be delayed I think blink-stalkers was a better tech path, but lets ignore that.

Next you had a superior army, honestly you could of pressed into his base with your stalker numbers at that point but even so. When you commit to that many stalkers I really think you should be the one owning the watch towers. He had to commit to a bunch of zealots to stay alive. If you are holding the watch tower that bilnk into the main doesn't do nearly as much damage.

Honestly, I was pretty surprised you lost the game also. There were points in the game where you were 20-30 supply ahead, 2 base vs 1 ... You had a slight upgrade advantage (slight! you started your upgrades so late you had +1 attack and he had 0 so it was only silghtly). The biggest thing to me was you didn't take advantage of what advantages you had in the game...economy/tech/upgrades. You didn't use chronoboost hardly at all. Your natural was destroyed with 100% chrono ... twice. Your main sat at 75 energy the entire game.


I actually haven't thought about how bad I am at spending chrono in pvp.... I need to work on that. Also maybe I should've warped in a few zealots instead of focusing so heavily on stalkers in the later stages of the game
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Posts: 560
Alright, I'll give my 2c. PvP still feels elusive to me, but it's starting to make a bit more sense. FWIW, I generally play a late game macro style and it sounds like that's what you're after.

My standard opener is 2 gate -> expand with 3 Stalkers. It's kind of an old opening, but I still feel like it's a good middle of the road build. I usually don't Probe scout at all on 4 player maps, so I like having those first few Stalkers out to get out on the map and look around a bit. On 2 player maps, the 3 Stalkers are nice for looking for proxies, then poking at their base with the Stalkers and MSC. It works especially well if they're being really greedy and going for a fast Nexus or if they're teching really aggressively because you can often walk right up their ramp and look around. Their Warp Gate will finish right about that time, so that will usually push you back out.

After the expand, I usually go Robo and another Gate, then respond from there. If they're going Stargate tech, Immortal/Archon/Storm/Chargelot. If they're going Robo, I go Stargate. If they're going Templar tech, I'll go towards Colossus. That last one can be really sketchy since Immortal/Chargelot/Archon will beat Colossus until you get up a good Colossus count and Archons of your own.

You mention losing to all-ins. This opener is pretty safe against all-ins. As soon as you know it's coming, chrono out Immortals as fast as possible and add a couple more gates (I like Robo + 5 Gates). It can help to wall your natural ramp with 2 of the Gateways. Be especially careful about getting supply blocked. 5 Gates + Immortals is 14 supply at a time. It's really easy to get supply blocked because you're not used to having that much production capability that early in the game.

Assuming normal play from your opponent, taking a third is the next really important part and you'll just have to practice taking it as early as you think is feasible. It really depends on how the game plays out, but taking that third is critical since PvP gets very defender favoured in the mid-game.

Late game core comp is usually either Archon/HT/Colossus or Archon/Void Ray/Carrier. Sprinkle in some Gateway units for support.

One final note... PvP is extremely positional (more so than either of our other matchups imo). Good positioning can easily win a battle against a much stronger army (or conversely, lose against a weaker army). Be careful about how you engage. If you lose a game where you felt like you were ahead, watch the replay and analyze where you lost control of the game. In PvP, it's often a single big battle where you came out 40+ supply lower than your opponent. Look at that engagement and see if you could have positioned better.
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Posts: 560
Also, I can't watch that replay since I'm at work...so just know that my above post is without having seen that replay.
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Posts: 85
yeah you really cleared some things up for me Methix. I think I've lost a good few games now because of bad positioning, especially the one in the replay. Yeah, I will try your build. But how does it do against a DT rush? will the robo come out just in time for an observer or what
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Posts: 10,950
10/30/2013 11:52 AMPosted by IlIlIlIIIlll
But how does it do against a DT rush? will the robo come out just in time for an observer or what
From my experience, expands into robos should have an observer in time.
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Posts: 560
10/30/2013 11:52 AMPosted by IlIlIlIIIlll
But how does it do against a DT rush? will the robo come out just in time for an observer or what


The Robo goes down around 5:45. That means an Observer out at about 7:00. Against a "standard" DT opener, it's perfectly safe. If they cut a lot of corners, it's possible to get a DT to you before the Obs is out. If I suspect DT, I keep my 3 Stalkers blocking my ramp on Hold Position with my Sentries behind them (I usually build 2 Sentries after my Robo). The Stalker wall and Force Fields will easily stall long enough for the Observer to get out.

Just be ready for an Archon/Chargelot all-in follow up. Send an Observer or Hallucinated Phoenix to confirm that they're expanding and not gearing up for a big 1-base all-in.
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Posts: 560
One other follow up thought, that early DT rush gets somewhat preempted by that 3 Stalker/MSC poke early on. If you're forcing them to react there, it'll slow down any DT plans they had.
Edited by Methix on 10/30/2013 2:45 PM PDT
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Posts: 350
There are a lot of tips a man can give here but you need to know the basics of PvP

1: It is a bully batch. Its all the big guys thats coming out to play and they don't rely on upgrades to overrun you, they just do that, Bully.

2: PvP can either be very quick matches, Tech up matches or one hectic Cheese games.

3: Skytos in the lower Leagues are quite popular because of the power of a Void Ray, but dont try to rely on it.

4: In stead of trying to counter what your opponent is building, try to swing the game so he needs to try and counter you. (A sneaky Proxy DT game or even Proxy Stargate does the trick)

5: Watch out for Immortal players (Like me)

I hope this helped
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Posts: 1,339
10/30/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Methix
One other follow up thought, that early DT rush gets somewhat preempted by that 3 Stalker/MSC poke early on. If you're forcing them to react there, it'll slow down any DT plans they had.


Casting a forcefield on the ramp doesn't slow down the DT tech, in say, Dear's DT/Immortal build he used twice in his R08 match vs Trap (and also against MC's 4-gate (lol) in the WCS Finals).

DTs hit as early as 6:30 in PvP, so you're basically fine, but may lose a smallish number of probes with that build. No build is even/ahead vs everything, and ur 1-gate expo will put you behind vs 3-gate pressure or Phoenix gateway allins, but that is another story.
Edited by ScoobySnacks on 10/31/2013 8:45 AM PDT
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Posts: 560
Was that the game on Frost where they spawned upper left and lower left?
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Posts: 6,204
There is nothing secret about it, it sucks, it is a cheese fest, aggressive play beats safe play,
i proxy 2 gate every single one and when I don't I regret it
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Posts: 350
10/31/2013 03:45 PMPosted by LickABoss
i proxy 2 gate every single one and when I don't I regret it


You can try and hope an pray that I dont spot you. Other wise its game over for you. lol.
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Posts: 929
There is nothing secret about it, it sucks, it is a cheese fest, aggressive play beats safe play,
i proxy 2 gate every single one and when I don't I regret it

if they scout then you auto lose though...
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Posts: 587
You have three things you can do in PvP

1. DT rush
2. Mass colossi
3. Mass void ray, before massing them just fak up his workers with an oracle

mass void ray is the bestest
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Posts: 3,392
I just don't understand this damn depressing matchup. I just don't. Explain to me how I'm supposed to open, expand and scout without losing to absolutely EVERYTHING. Because every time I think I've figured it out I just get roflstomped by another one of the 87 allin/cheese/macro cheese builds. like seriously, I'm playing against different builds every time.

http://drop.sc/363723
If anybody has the time, pls take a look at how I lost this game. Am I missing something huge? Because I've played every race and every matchup up to diamond except for this one. It's by far the most illogical and retarded matchup in the game.

Alternatively if you know an easy cheese buildorder (that isn't blink stalkers or DT) and works up to mid-master or higher I'm very interested.


I totally disagree. Protoss mirror is probably the most logical matchup in the game.

If you want to see crap, just go look at Zerg mirror, or Zerg vs Terran. Now that's stupid.

1 gate
cyber
2 gate
robo
3 gate

Chrono Boost Observer

Chrono Boost Immortals

Meanwhile, Observer to enemy ramp, then mineral line for tech under construction

Make stalkers when you can, zealots when you're out of gas.

Scout double proxy all in

Scout Void ray and DT cheese

Aim for 8 minute push with 2 or 3 immortals and whatever else you managed to build

If you should see a Dark Shrine at any time start another observer.
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