StarCraft® II

Cannon Rush Nerf Prop.

I haven't played the game, including ranked, in over 4-5 months. This was mainly due to cannon rushes are just too potent and a pain in the behind. Honestly I find the range on the cannon to be the main cause of the problem.

If the range was reduced to 6 instead of 7, the cannon would need to be moved closer for it to be effective and would give Stalkers and marauders a neutral range. But in all honesty this would leave the air attack gimped compared to the other static air detectors. In honesty I think the photon cannon should have two separate attacks where the ground attacks had a shorter range it would nerf cannon rushing without too many knock backs.
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Cannon rushes are actually really easy to scout and defend, I'm sure there are guides online to show you how to perfectly stop them. Cannon rushing is a huge risk and the player who attempts it is WAY behind if he fails.

Also I need to point out that Cannon rushing was already heavily nerfed when HOTS came out due to high ground powering being removed.

The only map where cannon rushing is viable is Yeonsu in PvP, but if you scout your area or your opponent opening forge it's still easily stopped on that map.
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If cannons had range nerfs, they would die to spine crawlers and bunkers
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hows about you just scout your base? its not that hard to, you know, move a probe around in your base?
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11/09/2013 06:13 AMPosted by TheMoreUKnow
hows about you just scout your base? its not that hard to, you know, move a probe around in your base?


JD also fell victim to cannon rushes in today's series, but I do wonder how much of that could have been prevented by a probe on patrol. but i don't know, maybe that's too much of a mineral loss to do that.
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hows about you just scout your base? its not that hard to, you know, move a probe around in your base?


JD also fell victim to cannon rushes in today's series, but I do wonder how much of that could have been prevented by a probe on patrol. but i don't know, maybe that's too much of a mineral loss to do that.


This. I want to see the math on how many minerals are lost trying to defend a cannon rush due to lost mining time vs the amount spent. I feel like if we crunched the numbers it would come out as either neutral or probably cost efficient.
Mainly because I think it is incredibly beneficial just based off the amount of times I've seen pro Protoss' use cannon rushes just to at least gain an early/mid economic advantage by obtaining a faster expansion which Protoss' are not meant to do because of there bottomline mechanics (expensive but most cost effective units/ weakest econ). Using a cannon rush for the simple, yet seemingly minor, purpose of gaining a greater economic foothold in the most crucial period of the game(early game, because of exponential scaling in mineral gain/unit production) seems really easy to pull off for such a large gain with only a few number of actions.

- But to be absolutely fair I think too many zerg are following popular formulas right now instead of pushing the meta game envelope and being creative/out-of-the-box. I'm an awful player this is just my 2 observational cents.
Edited by Trickeri on 11/10/2013 12:46 AM PST
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I haven't played the game, including ranked, in over 4-5 months. This was mainly due to cannon rushes are just too potent and a pain in the behind. Honestly I find the range on the cannon to be the main cause of the problem.

If the range was reduced to 6 instead of 7, the cannon would need to be moved closer for it to be effective and would give Stalkers and marauders a neutral range. But in all honesty this would leave the air attack gimped compared to the other static air detectors. In honesty I think the photon cannon should have two separate attacks where the ground attacks had a shorter range it would nerf cannon rushing without too many knock backs.


Get out of silver then discuss whats unbalanced.
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Get out of silver then discuss whats unbalanced.


Then just learn how to deal with 2 base all-in's vs Protoss, Void Ray harass, 6 Pheonix cleaning up your Overlords/Overseers/queens while you attempt to establish 3/4 bases.

It doesn't stop in Silver, either. I've been cannon rushed or 2 based 6/7 games today.
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11/10/2013 12:28 AMPosted by Trickeri
- But to be absolutely fair I think too many zerg are following popular formulas right now instead of pushing the meta game envelope and being creative/out-of-the-box. I'm an awful player this is just my 2 observational cents.


Considering Zerg's Hatchery and Lair unitsl are incredibly weak vs Protoss Gateway units, I'm unsure what this "creativity" or "out-of-the-box" meta you are speaking of is? Do you want us to magically have the ability to recall units for defense, warp units for offense, and hold amazing early game map pressure with a made-up air unit that is as cost efficient as a Pheonix? Have you ever played this game?
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Considering Zerg's Hatchery and Lair unitsl are incredibly weak vs Protoss Gateway units,


You're kidding right, zerg hatch units are better and cheaper than gateway units. You can get two roaches for 1 stalker, guess which ones win.
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Considering Zerg's Hatchery and Lair unitsl are incredibly weak vs Protoss Gateway units,


You're kidding right, zerg hatch units are better and cheaper than gateway units. You can get two roaches for 1 stalker, guess which ones win.


So true, roaches in equal cost counter stalkers pretty well. By creative/unusual I meant something like Life's aggressive ZvP builds.
Edited by Trickeri on 11/11/2013 2:24 PM PST
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Considering Zerg's Hatchery and Lair unitsl are incredibly weak vs Protoss Gateway units,


You're kidding right, zerg hatch units are better and cheaper than gateway units. You can get two roaches for 1 stalker, guess which ones win.


You can actually get 3 or 4 Roaches per stalker, because the Zerg will be up by a base, therefore has way more money.
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In the words of King HeReTiC: No.
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I haven't played the game, including ranked, in over 4-5 months. This was mainly due to cannon rushes are just too potent and a pain in the behind. Honestly I find the range on the cannon to be the main cause of the problem.

If the range was reduced to 6 instead of 7, the cannon would need to be moved closer for it to be effective and would give Stalkers and marauders a neutral range. But in all honesty this would leave the air attack gimped compared to the other static air detectors. In honesty I think the photon cannon should have two separate attacks where the ground attacks had a shorter range it would nerf cannon rushing without too many knock backs.


the Problem is cannons absolutely SUCK vs tier 1.5 and tier 2 units, because they all have gimmick !@#$ like 6 range, 20 damage, blink, hardened shields, fast regen, or 13 range, etc.. If you make cannons any weaker they won't be worth making for anything EXCEPT cannon rushes...

It's already the case that cannons cannot even stop their own value worth of certain units, and I don't even mean seige units, I mean a-move "mover-shooter" units.

If not for being able to block up with buildings, the cannons would not even be good vs early Zerglings or Zealots.

Cannons out-ranged most units in Broodwar too. I think they had 6 range there, and everything except the Tank, Lurker, Reaver, and Dragoon had 5 or less range.

Lurkers had 6 range but needed to be burrowed to attack, so Cannons still beat Lurkers pretty well, unless you had a mob of the Lurkers, which is unlikely.

Static defense is supposed to beat everything in a "stand-up fight" except Siege Units and Siege Equivalent units. Because it cannot move, it is supposed to be much more cost-effective than units. There are already too many units that beat cannons cost for cost,w hen they are supposed to be a zone denial that the opponent is supposed to be forced to "deal with it" somehow.

If you want to blame something, blame the ridiculous tier 1.5 and tier 2 units in the game, like Marauders, Roaches, and Immortals. With their insane defensive and offensive stats, those units are what caused Cannons HP and Shields to be inflated back from the 100/100 of BW to the 150/150 of Starcraft Vanilla.

Are cannons too good vs Tier 1? In some situations yes they are, but they HAVE TO BE, else there would never be any worthwhile reason to make them, because they'd suck even harder vs everything else.
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