Balance Test Map

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Posts: 16,402
Look at pvp for figuring out what's reasonable with photon overcharge, that's where the change is most significant by far.

It'll force protoss to have a few more units in PvT for sure, but I think it's much bigger in PvP.
Posts: 1
I don't really understand why you think it's nessecary to see more mech used , dayvie.

Mech is already used and when it is, it creates for the most boring of games. Countless of examples from Goody Games which are 1 hour +, he doesnt attack and in the end the opponent starves out....Is this something we want?
Posts: 3,003
Not everything Terran has should be viable in all matchups against all compositions - the other races, especially Zerg, have to look the enemy army in the eye and realize that maybe the composition they WANTED to go, isn't going to work well.I can't make mass DT if the enemy has ravens, I can't make mass Archon if the enemy has ghosts.Terran shouldn't make mass marine if the enemy has multiple colossi, they shouldn't make mass thor if the enemy has immortals.

Your post kinda forgets a lot of weaknesses the terran army has and then we start getting into the different strength of races when going towards this.
While scouting the possible counters your opponent is doing is all good and well, you forget a few points.
In your examples the zerg can tech switch easily to deal with a strong counter.
A toss can morph to archons after ravens become an issue which may require a completely different response from the opponent.
Having to mass ghosts to stop archons greatly weakens you to a stalker tech switch (pretty fast and easy to do).
However mech really has none of these features. It's a pretty static composition that slowly grows more dynamic over time.

If your post is more towards terran shouldn't be able to mech against toss than perhaps skyterran should be strengthen to put forth some diversity. Because no race should ever have just one playstyle in a match up.

Toss has always had access to Templar and robo against terran early game. And the skytoss switch was always viable in the very lategame, should terran not have this kind of flexibility?
Posts: 982
Since the most recent ladder season began, we’ve heard an enormous amount of feedback on Protoss strength. While the results data we’re getting isn’t so clear due to not as many tournament games going on these days, we do agree that other races can’t go on offense as easily as we’d like against Protoss early on.

As we prepare this next balance test map, we’d like to hear your thoughts on:

Photon overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 40

We believe the the Mothership Core is very well-rounded unit. We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit. We’d like to see more options for Terran and Zerg to attack, skirmish, or harass a Protoss player who plays defensively.


Roach burrow move speed to 2.25


Of the various changes we made in the [url="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/11523757"]last balance patch[/url], this one seems to be the one that didn’t do much. We’ve rarely see any roach burrow-move games, and we’d like to bump this up a bit more with the hope that we’d see it. Considering the few games we did see this strategy being used, they were really fun and different compared to other strategies that Zerg use. Perhaps we can move in small steps in order to see some more burrow move speed usage in various matchups.

The next step for Terran mech

We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.

Please keep in mind none of this is even close to final. We truly appreciate your feedback, and we’ll continue to carefully consider what you’ve got to say before we publish the next balance test map.

As we gather more feedback we'll try to tune these and possibly additional changes before we start on the next balance test map.

Thank you and happy new year!


Feedback on Terran Mech:

1) Higher armored damage to siege tanks - does not solve issues. This does not help vs light units such as mass chargelots, or archons, etc. Issue is siege tanks suck for their vespene gas cost and get runover and cannot hold positions because they are too weak against all Protoss units.

Better buff is a buff to tank damage vs Protoss shields since it will not affect TvT or TvZ but only TvP

Basically, what I'm saying is, siege tank does not need more damage vs "armored," it needs slightly more damage vs PROTOSS.

2) Easier access to EMP - this is basically a...

"Hey we're buffing mech...by making you build bio units!!!"

We want mech, not bio as a solution to play mech. The problem here is you guys at blizzard are ignoring the elephant in the room that you created - the immortal.

The immortal has hard countered mech since wings of liberty beta, and is still too good vs Terran mech. Instead of just trying to step around the problem, simply find a way to nerf the immortal vs Terran mech, so it's not the end all, be all of Pvmech where the opponent simply has immortals and if you have no ghosts you autolose...as you do right now...

3) Armory price changed to BROOD WAR ARMORY price - lets terran players upgrade mech earlier in the game, instead of playing every single mech tvp upgrade handicapped as they currently do.

If this sees the light of day, you'll see more mech, because people can't really play mech TvP when you're playing the entire game 1/1 vs 2/2 or 2/2 vs 3/3.

4) Photon overcharge...wat?

This nerf does not open up any new builds TvP - it will be exactly the same. Can you guys at blizzard see cloak banshee or hellion openings or anything else getting through a 13 range nexus cannon?

Those builds will still be dead, even at 40 second duration. Aka the match-up will remain exactly the same as it was before in terms of opening options for the Terran player, and there are too many opening options for the Protoss player.

Here's what I think:
If you want opening TvP games to have diversity and not be so 1 sided with the nexus cannon, the nexus cannon range should be reduced to such a range that a banshee can attack workers from the edge of a mineral line without being hit back.

Otherwise, don't see this change doing much, other than allowing BIO PLAYERS to attack 20 seconds earlier...but yeah...doesn't change much.
Posts: 23
Siege Tanks
The Answer vs Immortals - Make the tank's normal mode attack animation attack 2 times per animation with the same cumulative damage. Heck, why not make the normal mode have 2 gun barrels and make a new animation. Doing this will allow the meching player to decide how many tanks should be in normal or siege mode...

This will help mech vs PROTOSS (Immortal) without affecting zerg.

Also, reduce cost of armory, protoss and zerg have too big an upgrade advantage over meching terrans, this should help alleviate that issue and don't make bio units the answer to mech.
Edited by BABOCHEE on 1/2/2014 3:07 PM PST
Posts: 207
01/02/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Doncroft
*nods*


yes i see... and i understand now! ^^

but lets be honest... that change is not even close.

i really hope blizzard is not like u are... *nods*
Edited by Damian on 1/2/2014 3:09 PM PST
Posts: 1,216
It was only a matter of time.
Posts: 6,798
I personally believe Oracles are more of a problem than the MSC, but hey if an MSC nerf such as this one works, I think the game could benefit from it. Aggression and counter-aggression is always exciting -- when both sides have the options available to them.

For Mech, I think it'd be interesting to see what a faster EMP would do, as mentioned.

Personally I wouldn't mind the Widow Mine being looked at against Protoss. It just seems like it isn't used a whole lot due to its range, but I think it could be strong if people had the motivation to use it.

In my opinion, Mech air does its job fine -- except for perhaps the Banshee, if it's considered as support. Feedback especially just makes it almost useless it seems. However, it would be a really good support unit against Immortals if High Templar didn't destroy them. I wonder what the ability to have them reactored but still have cloak at a tech lab would be like.

The Siege Tank buff to armored just sounds like it would do too much against things like Roaches and Stalkers, and I'm not sure what exactly the buff is supposed to accomplish. But it would make Blink All-ins easier to hold and maybe if the Roach buff goes through it would be used more against those.

Speaking of the Roach buff, it seems like they'll be really difficult to deal with if the buff goes through and the Zergs micro decently. I don't know if that's a bad thing, though.
Edited by NinjaDuckBob on 1/2/2014 3:13 PM PST
Posts: 929
I'm totally okay with nerfing PO so Terran can be more aggressive, but I'd MUCH rather see timewarp nerfed instead, so 1 base all ins in PvT and PvP aren't as strong.

Burrowed roach speed is cool and fun, but they move faster than observers as is. with this change they'd be as fast as ravens and be damn awful for protoss. Furthermore, a lot of people don't realize how strong burrow is. 10 hp a second is huge, and it'd be easy to micro roaches like blink stalkers and keep them alive forever.

Mech does NOT need a buff. Period. If a player is willing to turtle for 30 minutes, they cannot and will not lose. Also a buff to mech air?! The raven is the most broken unit in the game, of which zerg cannot beat in any way, and toss can only end up beating because of ht/tempest.

All in all, changes are in the right places, but a bad way of going about them. Nerf toss early game offense instead of defense. Roaches will be stupid OP and worse than blink stalkers in ZvT/ZvP . Mech will be broken good. No more exciting bio, just 35 minute turtle fests.
Posts: 567
Where's the nerf to the Oracle?????? This is a huge problem, probably a bigger problem then Photon Overcharge.
Posts: 118
ZERG ANTIAIR ll TOSS LOW SKILLCEILING ll TVP BROKEN AS !@#$ ll INFESTOR USELESS UNIT ll DEATHBALL MECHANIC ll ZERH CANT HARASS ll AND ALOT MORE THINGS THAT SHOULDNT BE THERE CONSIDERING HOW MUCH YOU GET PAYED AND HOW MUCH FUNDING YOU HAD PRIOR TO RELEASE IN 2010

TOOK YOU IDIOTS 1 YEAR TO REALISE BL INFESTOR WAS OP,JUST AN EXAMPLE OF HOW INCOMPETENT DAVID KIM AND HIS IQ<60 CRUE IS AND IT HASNT GOTTEN ANY BETTER.3 YEARS OF COMPLETE FAILURE

I'm sure bronze level balance team will be very creative and by the time Blizz management decides to fire those morons,Riot(or any other company with exp in competetive gaming) will create decent RTS(i can dream).untill that happens i will curse and play this %^-*ty game cos there is no alternative
Posts: 10
The protoss is still way too safe early game. I don't get the thought process behind the time nerf. The range on the nexus cannon is what needs nerfed.
Posts: 7,735
I like the photon overcharge and the roach speed buff changes. I'm not a mech player, so I can't say what's a good idea.

As a bio player, I don't think the late-game hellbat option is working right now. If you guys want to treat hellbats as purely mech units, that's fine, but bio-hellbat doesn't feel right anymore. Can you take a look at giving bio a more robust late-game option, like maybe buffing the reaper with a later-game upgrade or the ghost sniper round?
Edited by JorgeCis on 1/2/2014 3:09 PM PST
Posts: 3,612
01/02/2014 03:06 PMPosted by Aristarcus
Where's the nerf to the Oracle?????? This is a huge problem, probably a bigger problem then Photon Overcharge.


thats what i said, the oracle and the void are a bigger problem than the overcharge
Posts: 800
01/02/2014 02:38 PMPosted by Doncroft
The Thor is ridiculously slow. It's already bulky and clumsy, and it's a lot, LOT slower than the other massive ground units in Starcraft II. The Thor's importance to mech anti air has increased since the Widow Mine nerf. I feel that the 1.88 movement speed is old fashioned, unreasonable, and outdated, especially with the smaller Thor model. 2.00 seems much more reasonable. It's a small but noticeable buff (notice the theme of noticeable changes as opposed to things like the SIege Tank fire rate increase).


Are you sure doing this wouldn't have a negative effect on zerg muta harassment?
Posts: 7,894
YES YES YES! I'm so excited,

Now, can we look at splitting up the upgrades again? I fear for our zerg bretheran and dat brutal skjyterran transition that can be done off 3.5 bases. Perhaps we can change the SH a bit too so we can force mech users to be in multiple places at once with good positioning, while still allowing tanks to push below crtical mass.
MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 28,390
01/02/2014 03:08 PMPosted by Palefang
Are you sure doing this wouldn't have a negative effect on zerg muta harassment?

Not vs bio, no. Thors are usually only added in after the 16-18 minute mark for zoning support. Vs mech I think it's needed since the Widow Mine nerf.
Posts: 16,402
01/02/2014 03:08 PMPosted by DontPanic
Where's the nerf to the Oracle?????? This is a huge problem, probably a bigger problem then Photon Overcharge.


thats what i said, the oracle and the void are a bigger problem than the overcharge

giving terran opportunities to actually attack means that making more units could actually be a suitable defense.
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