StarCraft® II

Is Starbow more apm-intensive than SC2?

Posts: 389
I know the answer is yes, I just want a confirmation from players. Furthermore, is it more apm-centric than SC2, meaning, is the statement that players with stronger apm can defeat players with superior game sense more true in Starbow than it is in SC2?
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how can you prove this either way? (the first question)
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All answers will be opinions -- mostly bandwagoners siding with starbow because starcraft 2 is the evil twin.
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Posts: 389
I have nothing against Starbow and I don't want any opinionated whining from people who hate it already. I suspect I will try playing it, but I want to know right away if a player like me who is very slow and only ever wins with creative plays can actually enjoy the game.
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Is more Micro dependent...And has more skills to cast..Without forget more hard mechanicks So yes. But wait till SC2 Hots SBow haters(generally Protoss ofc) come and say hell no. PD: Idra's opinion: @prOpMorroWBB2 yea i think my whole stream tomorrow will be it. there's already more to it mechanically than sc2, just a matter of balance.
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01/15/2014 10:14 PMPosted by Him
All answers will be opinions -- mostly bandwagoners siding with starbow because starcraft 2 is the evil twin.


First off let me dispense with the negative connotations attached to bandwagons. In olden days one could not transport a band without use of a wagon, in much the same way as one cannot transport the unwashed masses to the promised land of Starbow without the use of trends. So you see, it is no crime to stand against evil, particularly evil twins, as they are both creepy and evil.

Secondly, Starbow may or may not have "more apm" than sc2 -- personally I feel the difference is this. Sc2 has a high apm requirement, Starbow (and Broodwar) have high apm rewards. That is to say, in sc2 there are a few 5-10 sec periods throughout the course of the game (when deathball meets deathball) where you MUST micro your !@# off or die. Starbow presents a continuous opportunity to gain smaller advantages through micro, which will eventually snowball into a win... But no sudden AUUUWAGH STORM EMP STIM KITE COLLOSI OMG OMG AND HE WINS!!!

There are more opportunities to out micro the enemy in Starbow, but they are less all or nothing than sc2. One cannot simply steamroll with a deathball due to limited mobility units (ex: reavers instead of colossi) and powerful defensive units (tanks, lurkers, defilers) so games don't just instantly end when 1 guy has a 20 army supply advantage or catches the other guy looking away for 1sec.
Edited by SlylockMcFox on 1/15/2014 10:24 PM PST
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01/15/2014 10:19 PMPosted by EffOrt
Is more Micro dependent...And has more skills to cast..Without forget more hard mechanicks So yes. But wait till SC2 Hots SBow haters(generally Protoss ofc) come and say hell no. PD: Idra's opinion: @prOpMorroWBB2 yea i think my whole stream tomorrow will be it. there's already more to it mechanically than sc2, just a matter of balance.


Omg someone quoted idra being serious! He's not the most 1 sided biased person in sc.

But to answer op question. Who really cares, it's fun, try it for yourself.

Personally I think it's a fad (in the long run) but I am really really enjoying it ATM.

Something doesn't have to suit your play style to b fun
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Protoss is certainly.
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Posts: 950
What on earth is the point of this conversation... People are limited by their own apm capabilities in a game like starcraft regardless if you're playing starbow or sc2. People havent even come close to reaching the skill cap in sc2. Nobody is used to playing starbow yet, so you have to actually think about what you do instead of most of it being muscle memory which makes you feel like you need to be faster to play it.
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01/15/2014 10:32 PMPosted by Thanatos
Is more Micro dependent...And has more skills to cast..Without forget more hard mechanicks So yes. But wait till SC2 Hots SBow haters(generally Protoss ofc) come and say hell no. PD: Idra's opinion: @prOpMorroWBB2 yea i think my whole stream tomorrow will be it. there's already more to it mechanically than sc2, just a matter of balance.


Omg someone quoted idra being serious! He's not the most 1 sided biased person in sc.

But to answer op question. Who really cares, it's fun, try it for yourself.

Personally I think it's a fad (in the long run) but I am really really enjoying it ATM.

Something doesn't have to suit your play style to b fun


Agree, but his word i guess that has more value than yours or mine..
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Posts: 2,017
Regardless if it is more APM intensive or not, I do like the approach Starbow takes for rewarding APM. Which is actions are slow, but one can execute countless slow actions to take advantage of multi-tasking. Strategy is molded over time, and the person with better mechanics can execute a more elaborate game-plan.

In SC2 everything is sooo quick, battles are over in 1 second, zerglings run faster than the speed of light, it's these things that create an environment where exploiting timing windows means a lot more than having solid mechanics. It is why a game like (Idra vs Trimaster) was possible.
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Posts: 12,234
APM in Starbow is like APM in SC2.
You can have really high APM and suck.
You can have relatively low APM and use them where it counts.

I think
is the statement that players with stronger apm can defeat players with superior game sense more true in Starbow than it is in SC2?

is a better question, if apm = micro and game sense = macro.

I can tell you that good mechanics are still very important.
And that I've had some very nice micro focused back and forth games, but also some one sided a-move games.
And that it is still largely unexplored. I feel like the only one bothering to try using the Sentinel...
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Posts: 389
K I played Starbow today. I guess I should have done that before posting. APM is the ONLY thing that matters. Even macro and base defense requires massive amounts of repetitive clicking, for terran anyway. I am beginning to understand why this game has had such a polarizing rollout.
01/15/2014 11:51 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
if apm = micro and game sense = macro.

No, by game sense I meant the ability to assess the situation accurately and to continuously make calculated choices, and by apm I meant apm.
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Posts: 12,234
No, by game sense I meant the ability to assess the situation accurately and to continuously make calculated choices, and by apm I meant apm.

Well then its meaningless.

But good luck 'APMing' out of a losing game.
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Posts: 389
01/17/2014 07:48 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
No, by game sense I meant the ability to assess the situation accurately and to continuously make calculated choices, and by apm I meant apm.

Well then its meaningless.

But good luck 'APMing' out of a losing game.

What's meaningless? My question is completely valid. Ketroc has a quarter of the apm of his opponents but always knows exactly what to do next, he has an understanding of the flow of the game so finely tuned that he knows when to expand and when not to, exactly how many turrets he will need, exactly how many scvs to pull, etc., and all with an extremely low margin of error.

He has never been a GM, of course. An 1:5 ratio between one's APM and their opponent's is where no amount of awareness and intelligent decision-making will win a game, in SC2 anyway.

On the other hand, I spent the entire rest of the day yesterday playing Starbow, and I am currently of the opinion that "APMing' out of a losing game" is totally doable. I did it at least once. This is a mod that rewards finger speed. If your APM is lower than that of your opponent by more than 20% you will lose.
Edited by Hazzini on 1/17/2014 2:04 PM PST
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Posts: 12,234
An 1:5 ratio between one's APM and their opponent's is where no amount of awareness and intelligent decision-making will win a game, in SC2 anyway.

And where do you get that ratio?
How do you determine which actions are meaningful, and which have no relation to the outcome of the game?
How do you measure a player's decision-making, especially in a game where the meta is much less explored?

On the other hand, I spent the entire rest of the day yesterday playing Starbow, and I am currently of the opinion that "APMing' out of a losing game" is totally doable.

In comparison to what?
I've played a few games where some masters level opponents let units die when they didn't have to, because they weren't used to the unit dynamics and terrain advantages. The games may have been closer than a game in normal SC2 against that same opponent, but I attribute that to them blatantly saying at the start "this is my first match in Starbow"
I've played plenty of matches where people just basically a-move and win too.
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01/15/2014 10:19 PMPosted by EffOrt
Is more Micro dependent...And has more skills to cast..Without forget more hard mechanicks So yes. But wait till SC2 Hots SBow haters(generally Protoss ofc) come and say hell no.


Why would Starbow haters say no to that question? In my opinion (and I don't even hate Starbow, just think it's not for me), the high APM requirement is its biggest downside.
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Posts: 389
01/19/2014 08:23 AMPosted by Yitzi
In my opinion (and I don't even hate Starbow, just think it's not for me), the high APM requirement is its biggest downside.

Same. I don't understand why in their attempt to make it more like BW they didn't simplify macro mechanics, instead turning them into a rabid click-fest.
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