Starbow, OneGoal and SC2

Posts: 3,235
After looking at numerous comments, I am finding people are taking fairly extreme stances. Some hate it, some love it and some are just pissed off in general.

Personally, I don’t think we need to look at this as a negative and or think Starbow and Onegoal is a wasted effort. I don’t believe that’s the case at all. It is a positive for everyone.

We need to look at this with a critical eye. First, I don't think it will ever truly compete with SC2 or at the very least it would be unhealthy for the E-Sports community. Blizzard, various sponsors, teams and pros all help fund and drive E-Sports. It is a complete equation that if any one of these weren’t part of, the community and E-Sports would suffer.

That said Starbow and Onegoal show us what’s possible. A lot of the community has had gripes for a long time. This has reared its ugly head in the form of videos, comments and mods leaving the community wondering what the game would be like if it had more micro, no mules, no chronoboost or injects. No units such as the colossus, which promote deathball play rather than smaller engagements. A lot of the community sees these types of things as a crutch, and there is a long list of complaints and what if’s.

Starbow and Onegoal stepped up to the plate and tried to answer these questions for the community. They created a game they thought addressed a lot of these issues. They have fostered a situation that allows for more micro and better unit movement, which helps differentiate good players from bad. They have created an environment that allows for smaller engagements and longer battles rather than watching your 200/200 army disappear in milliseconds. There are all sorts of good things that have come out of Starbow and Onegoal, and personally I can’t thank them enough for their efforts. Is everything they have done the right answer, no, but it gives us a peak at what could be.

And now that we know what is possible, the question is what does Blizzard do with this? Will they dismiss it? Will they even look into it? Or, will they be humble and willing to make these types of radical changes? Because, I think in a lot of ways it is a message from the community (not just a few gamers), the very people that love and play SC2. If it were just a few gamers, a one off, then I can see not taking it seriously. However, it’s been done several times, which means the community as a whole feels like SC2 is lacking something. Even if some of us can't put our finger on it.

There is always a fine line between when to act and when not to. Is it one gamer complaining? Is it five, ten or is a good portion of the community? And how many individual people represent other gamers opinions? The ones that don’t speak up? The ones that don’t post?

Personally, I think there is enough. These issues should be taken seriously. Some may ask the question why bother? I would rather ask the question why not? What’s it hurt? There is nothing but upside to it. Because at the end of the day we all want to create a game that is better than BW was in its prime. Don’t we?

Just my two cents on the situation, as I said, I feel it is a positive for everyone and it should be viewed as such. To that end, I want to thank OneGoal, Starbow and of course Blizzard for all their efforts in trying to make the best game they can. I think most of us really do appreciate it.

**Edit** For me, the biggest changes that I would like to see is more micro, better unit movement and smaller engagements rather than deathball play. I think some of the mechanics being used in these mods could do that very thing. However, as well all know there are many ways to get the job done and I'm not suggesting they have to do what Starbow and OneGoal have done. Simply that these mechanics in my opinion (and the community as it's been an issue since beta of WoL) would improve SC2.

That, and I would like to see a few units used more than they are currently being used, but that's a whole different post. I think Doncroft has had some very good posts in this area.
Edited by picKLes on 1/14/2014 1:07 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,845
I find it annoying that people act like these are the second coming of christ. And more annoying that it is spammed in all the discussion of starcraft so it seems every other thread is about it. This one certainly doesn't help. Pros aren't going to move to Starbow. People will lose interest in it. And it will die. Blizzard won't and probably can't make such drastic changes to the game.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
01/14/2014 11:10 AMPosted by Flare
I find it annoying that people act like these are the second coming of christ. And more annoying that it is spammed in all the discussion of starcraft so it seems every other thread is about it. This one certainly doesn't help. Pros aren't going to move to Starbow. People will lose interest in it. And it will die. Blizzard won't and probably can't make such drastic changes to the game.
I surely don't feel like these are the "second coming of christ." Simply that the community obviously feels as if there are certain things lacking in SC2, and that it has consistently been complained about since the beta of WoL. So why not look at this as a positive rather than a negative?

I love SC2, and always will, but do I feel like the game lacks in certain areas? I do and there is nothing wrong with sharing that opinion. Especially, in a bit more constructive manner rather than the typical flaming posts we have all come accustom to.

And I would argue, that Blizzard may indeed make some of these changes. There was an uproar about the carrier and as a result a change was made. They are not unwilling to make changes and so I say, why not? If it is for the betterment of the community and game.
Edited by picKLes on 1/14/2014 11:19 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,273
01/14/2014 11:10 AMPosted by Flare
I find it annoying that people act like these are the second coming of christ. And more annoying that it is spammed in all the discussion of starcraft so it seems every other thread is about it. This one certainly doesn't help. Pros aren't going to move to Starbow. People will lose interest in it. And it will die. Blizzard won't and probably can't make such drastic changes to the game.


Honestly, Starcraft 2 has been pretty much living off the name of its predecessor. Blizzard have pretty much been telling people what we want and not listening to the general feedback of the game. It took months to fix team games, It took over a year to fix BL infestor, Ladder has been broken for at least 3 months and we've only just got given clans and groups which were in Battle.net 1.0. It's taken nearly 4 years for Blizzard to finally listen that the majority of the community want mech and more variety and they've only just started talking about buffing mech. Of course Starbow won't take over SC2 but it might show Blizzard what people want and how they can turn over for LotV.
Edited by ANLProbe on 1/14/2014 11:23 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,845
01/14/2014 11:17 AMPosted by picKLes
I find it annoying that people act like these are the second coming of christ. And more annoying that it is spammed in all the discussion of starcraft so it seems every other thread is about it. This one certainly doesn't help. Pros aren't going to move to Starbow. People will lose interest in it. And it will die. Blizzard won't and probably can't make such drastic changes to the game.
I surely don't feel like these are the "second coming of christ." Simply that the community obviously feels as if there are certain things lacking in SC2, and that it has consistently been complained about since the beta of WoL. So why not look at this as a positive rather than a negative?

I love SC2, and always will, but do I feel like the game lacks in certain areas? I do and there is nothing wrong with sharing that opinion. Especially, in a bit more constructive manner rather than the typical flaming posts we have all come accustom to.

And I would argue, that Blizzard may indeed make some of these changes. There was an uproar about the carrier and as a result a change was made. They are not unwilling to make changes and so I say, why not? If it is for the betterment of the community and game.


With the carrier change all they really did was go from removing the unit to doing pretty much nothing. What lessons can they really take away from Starbow? Are they going to redesign all the races or remove all the boring "A-move" units from the game? They can barely be bothered to make mech a more viable strategy in TvP. I don't think you should get your hopes up for some kind of revolution of Starcraft 2 coming from the next expansion. If they even add in another new and well designed unit into the game, I would be happy.
Reply Quote
Posts: 251
people need to look at starbow with the approach that it is a different game,they can play it for fun and separately from hots and with no comparison

if you want to to implement a change in starcraft 2 ,you have to test it alone and test its effect on the game,this way you can take decision whether you want to implement or not

so hots cant benefit from starbow because it has too much changes that blizzard cant take even a single unit from starbow because this unit fit in starbow environment and would not guarantee that unit would fit in hots
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
With the carrier change all they really did was go from removing the unit to doing pretty much nothing. What lessons can they really take away from Starbow? Are they going to redesign all the races or remove all the boring "A-move" units from the game? They can barely be bothered to make mech a more viable strategy in TvP. I don't think you should get your hopes up for some kind of revolution of Starcraft 2 coming from the next expansion. If they even add in another new and well designed unit into the game, I would be happy.
And what I get from this is, you shouldn't even try because you are wasting your efforts. Obviously, I'm not trying to be adversarial, but whether it makes an impact or not I refuse to live my life with this type of perspective. At the very least, I've tried and made myself heard. If nothing comes from it, so be it, but if I lived my life with the outlook that I can't make a difference rather than I can, I'm not sure I'd even make it out of my house in the morning.

But, I see your point. Blizzard may not make these changes in LotV, but they will at least know how some of the community feels.
Reply Quote
Posts: 431
The real issue is blizz leadership. The decisions they have made in numerous games has been bad. In wow pandas and mists lost 7 million accounts and if they had listened to their players It think it could have been much better and saved players. They have an attitude like they know best, in customer service you give customers what they want, not what you think they want. SC2 same thing they don't listen and why do you go to pros to make a decision about a game that 90% will never play at that level. Make changes for the masses not the 10%.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
people need to look at starbow with the approach that it is a different game,they can play it for fun and separately from hots and with no comparison

if you want to to implement a change in starcraft 2 ,you have to test it alone and test its effect on the game,this way you can take decision whether you want to implement or not

so hots cant benefit from starbow because it has too much changes that blizzard cant take even a single unit from starbow because this unit fit in starbow environment and would not guarantee that unit would fit in hots
I'm surely not suggesting they take all the changes from Starbow and implement them. What I'm suggesting is much more high level. Starbow shows some great possibilities and while Blizzard would not (nor would I suggest )implement everything.They make take one, two or even three things from Starbow or Onegoal and use it. For example, the unit movement of the tank. Currently, the entire tank stops, does 180 degree turn then shoots. Instead of, just the turret doing 180 degree turn (like a real tank) while maintain movement and firing. This allows the tank to actually kite zealots. Small, yet profound change that takes us one step closer to a better game (in my opinion).
Edited by picKLes on 1/14/2014 11:41 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,858
01/14/2014 11:33 AMPosted by picKLes
But, I see your point. Blizzard may not make these changes in LotV, but they will at least know how some of the community feels.


OneGoal was telling the HotS beta team what the community feels. Dustin Browder answered a question in the Reddit AMA about changing the way resources were gathered. David Kim was asked point-blank about Lalush's "Depth of Micro". They should already know how some of the community feels long before Starbow came into the picture. That's really my sticking point: why should I believe this will result in anything different?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that having a mod for people who want to play something else is great. OneGoal, SC2+, and now Starbow are all out there. Nomufftotuff tweaks a community balance map. There's nothing wrong with any of this. But I'm with Flare that the amount of posts being flooded here is annoying. Can we keep it to a few posts, at least? Some of us are still playing SC2, for better or for worse.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,920
I agree that if Starbow and any other mods affect DK's decision making, their influence will have meant something and could lead to better changes.

That said these mods tend to be fracturing IMHO and we should focus more on things that can be changed in HotS and LotV, because that is where the money and the pro scene are at.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
01/14/2014 11:39 AMPosted by Delthian
The real issue is blizz leadership. The decisions they have made in numerous games has been bad. In wow pandas and mists lost 7 million accounts and if they had listened to their players It think it could have been much better and saved players. They have an attitude like they know best, in customer service you give customers what they want, not what you think they want. SC2 same thing they don't listen and why do you go to pros to make a decision about a game that 90% will never play at that level. Make changes for the masses not the 10%.
I hate to comment on this. I don't want to paint anyone in a bad light, but I would agree there have been some issues across all blizzard games. Is that a trend or a pattern, does it say something? Is there something to it? I'm not sure.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
OneGoal was telling the HotS beta team what the community feels. Dustin Browder answered a question in the Reddit AMA about changing the way resources were gathered. David Kim was asked point-blank about Lalush's "Depth of Micro". They should already know how some of the community feels long before Starbow came into the picture. That's really my sticking point: why should I believe this will result in anything different?
I agree that they should and do already know, but I also believe that if no changes are made then this will continue to happen (the very things that you are complaining about). Yesterday Onegoal, today Starbow tomorrow something else, because I think the community as a whole is saying things by the actions they take. Mods being created, videos, forums in an uproar, etc.

Sometimes changes don't happen over night. We've been complaining about mech since WoL (TvP more than anything), and it's taken years of never ending posts for them to actually consider it. These things are possible.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that having a mod for people who want to play something else is great. OneGoal, SC2+, and now Starbow are all out there. Nomufftotuff tweaks a community balance map. There's nothing wrong with any of this. But I'm with Flare that the amount of posts being flooded here is annoying. Can we keep it to a few posts, at least? Some of us are still playing SC2, for better or for worse.
I agree that it can be somewhat annoying, but unfortunately you have to take the good with the bad. When you give people this type of environment to express their feelings you are going to get both good and bad comments. There's not much you can do about it. It's like freedom of speech, while I may not like what someone has to say, I would not impede on someone's right to do so because I take the risk of jeopardizing my own right to freedom of speech.

That said, fair points and point taken.
Edited by picKLes on 1/14/2014 11:59 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 12,741
01/14/2014 11:47 AMPosted by picKLes
The real issue is blizz leadership. The decisions they have made in numerous games has been bad. In wow pandas and mists lost 7 million accounts and if they had listened to their players It think it could have been much better and saved players. They have an attitude like they know best, in customer service you give customers what they want, not what you think they want. SC2 same thing they don't listen and why do you go to pros to make a decision about a game that 90% will never play at that level. Make changes for the masses not the 10%.
I hate to comment on this. I don't want to paint anyone in a bad light, but I would agree there have been some issues across all blizzard games. Is that a trend or a pattern, does it say something? Is there something to it? I'm not sure.

The quality of Blizzard games took a major decline starting near the end of Burning Crusade (at least that is when I started noticing it).

Since that point Blizzard has not released a quality game--unless Hearthstone or Heroes of the Storm are very good.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,022
I agree with your sentiment. It's good to see people stepping up and giving out their opinions, and I really don't see how adding variety hurts. If people don't like their decisions or changes then they don't have to play them and can just play the standard mode.
Reply Quote
MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 28,563
Hypothetically, once the Arcade goes free, if these mods were to gain super popularity and draw more people in, if people were going to Starcraft II TO PLAY these mods, I guarantee it would catch company attention. I prefer the standard game (I was the same way in Brood War), but the mod community is what keeps a game going long after the patches have subsided and the tournaments have lessened.

With the free Arcade, let's just watch nature take its course and make sure the client is accessible and functional.

Addition: As for my personal opinion, I'm glad Starcraft II has the feel it does, because I love that feel! I never, ever, ever thought I would like Starcraft II better than Brood War, but by October 2010 I realized I preferred Starcraft II, even fresh and flawed as it was back then.

I'm glad these mods are gaining popularity. I want to see the Arcade community EXPLODE when it goes F2P. At the same time, I wouldn't want the main game to be a clone of these mods, because I prefer the main game as it is (with improvements, of course).
Edited by Doncroft on 1/14/2014 12:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,273
Doncroft, just wondering, why do you think that SC2 is the better designed.game even though it has been widely agreed upon that BW has the better design?
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,235
01/14/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Martiny
I agree with your sentiment. It's good to see people stepping up and giving out their opinions, and I really don't see how adding variety hurts. If people don't like their decisions or changes then they don't have to play them and can just play the standard mode.
I Agree. I'd also add there is no harsher critic than the customer/gamer. You'll know pretty quickly whether the gamer and or the community isn't happy.

Hypothetically, once the Arcade goes free, if these mods were to gain super popularity and draw more people in, if people were going to Starcraft II TO PLAY these mods, I guarantee it would catch company attention. I prefer the standard game (I was the same way in Brood War), but the mod community is what keeps a game going long after the patches have subsided and the tournaments have lessened.

With the free Arcade, let's just watch nature take its course and make sure the client is accessible and functional.
True enough.
Edited by picKLes on 1/14/2014 12:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 774
The quality of Blizzard games took a major decline starting near the end of Burning Crusade (at least that is when I started noticing it).

Since that point Blizzard has not released a quality game--unless Hearthstone or Heroes of the Storm are very good.


i think it was about the time actiblizz happened and they increased their rate of releases.
Reply Quote
MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 28,563
01/14/2014 12:55 PMPosted by ANLProbe
Doncroft, just wondering, why do you think that SC2 is the better designed.game even though it has been widely agreed upon that BW has the better design?

Hmm. First let me say that I enjoy Starcraft II more than Brood War, but isn't the same as saying one is better designed than the other. I do think that, but that's not what I'm saying when I say that. I'm talking about which one I find to be more fun.

I think I appreciate Starcraft II's design more because it feels a lot more intentional. Brood War was an anomaly, and to be honest, it was balanced 30% by Blizzard and 70% by the players and mapmakers. Brood War was my favorite RTS no contest till I started playing Starcraft II. I loved asymmetrical design of the three races with their very different mechanics and feels. Starcraft II added to that feeling, making the races even more diverse. I also liked how Starcraft II's controls were much more refined and not so punishing to new players. Worker pathing was especially good. I liked the changes to Protoss with fast charging energy shields and warp gates. Sentries took me a little getting used to, but I liked how Sentries made early game Protoss more micro intensive and less attack move reliant.

Then there were little things. I preferred the Stalker over the Dragoon, the Medivac over the Medic, and the increased importance of creep spread (seeing Zerg encouraged to "infest" the whole map was baller).

It's simply things like that. However, I will admit to some turn-offs when I first played Starcraft II:

1. Roaches felt inelegant compared to BW Tier 1 Zerg.

2. Mothership was either overpowered or underpowered.

3. Terran air units were initially less impressive (though I loved Banshees).

4. Terran Tier 1 felt way too strong.

Of those turn-offs, only the first two still apply (or at least still bother me).

Basically, I love the increased asymmetrical balance, greater ease of control and accessibility of the multiplayer, and the new macro mechanics.

As I finish, I want to emphasize that this is just my personal gamer experience with the transition, which is I believed what you asked for. :D
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]