StarCraft® II

Balance Patch, New Test Map, and Daedalus Fix

Posts: 233
oracle, dt, and blink are the problems for Terran in early game.. revert oracle speed, nerf MC vision, and Remove ebay requirement for turret should fix the match up for the most part.
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Posts: 62
02/03/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
Great, you're nerfing the one good zerg map in the pool vs. protoss.

CAN YOU JUST MAKE ONE MAP THAT IS GOOD FOR ZERG?


Zerg/protoss maps:

Alterzim stronghold
Frozt

Terran maps:
None

All the rest of maps are "balanced"
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Posts: 10
Thank you. Really like these steps in particular and your approach in general.
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Posts: 254
Good changes to start with, but i do believe that you'll end up having to put that msc sight nerf in the game, before we see the pvt mu start to balance out. Also, if your dead set on the tempest bdg dmg buff, can you tone it down some please? thanks.
Edited by OtherLuke on 2/3/2014 11:57 AM PST
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Posts: 1,431
02/03/2014 11:49 AMPosted by Aeligos


The widowmine nerf was too excessive and should be revisited and un-nerfed.


no they shouldn't. mines may not be as glorious as they were before, but they are now a fair unit for their cost.

widow mines used to be the primary damage dealers and marines were only used to bait the zerg army into widow mines. that turned the widow mine into the main army, and the marines and medivacs were merely support units.
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Posts: 6,128
02/03/2014 11:48 AMPosted by Renideo
It's weird when you have fixed costs appearing or disappearing without an extremely obvious effect on a particular timing. The ghost change is one of the few things I'm genuinely interested to see tested, because I have no idea what difference it will actually make-- sometimes slight shifts in costs do lead to bigger changes in combination with other things.


The reason why I shrug off the ghost buff is because I'm too busy trying to get my early game defenses ready to think about spending 350/150 on a ghost academy and a ghost. I am cautiously optimistic about countering a quick HT storm build (which I have seen on ladder a few times), but we'll see. Otherwise, I don't see how this changes much, and I think bio needs a little more in the matchup.

I'm interested to see what will happen with the hydra buff. I guess I'll stop playing the test map.
Edited by JorgeCis on 2/3/2014 11:58 AM PST
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Posts: 10,875
02/03/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
Great, you're nerfing the one good zerg map in the pool vs. protoss.

CAN YOU JUST MAKE ONE MAP THAT IS GOOD FOR ZERG?
LOL the 3rd base will still be terribly hard for protoss
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Posts: 851
@Dayvie if you look at the teamliquid thread about pros commenting on the balanced changes, you will see some interesting ideas and concepts and theorycraft. Through the replies, there are people like Snute and Scarlett who make some comments. There are good ideas on buffing the hydralisks in different ways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=442494&view=all
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Posts: 2,288
inb4 they reduced ramp size by 1 pixel just to see our reactions.

But seriously these small changes are nice.
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Posts: 4,996
Dayvie, I hope you read this.

This is my honest opinion about hydras right now.

As of now, Hydras are a viable tool in ZvP, somewhat viable in ZvT, against a meching terran, and are useful in ZvZ, but are outplayed 20x by mutas.

The MAIN issue with the hydra is that it is lair tech. It should be hatch tech. This is my opinion. Zerg needs a reliable Anti-air unit in the early game. The roach and hydra should trade places.

But, if that can't happen, Hydras need a change. Right now, they are a glass cannon that die to all forms of AoE and are pretty slow, and require 2 upgrades to become useful. Even then, compositions with the hydralisk lose to most protoss and mech deathballs. It's just not a lategame unit, yet it is one of the only AA units zerg has.

The hydralisk needs to be made a 75/25 unit.

This would fix a couple of things .

1: will help with getting hydras out faster, do deal with fast voids, phoenix, and units that FLY.
2: this will help in ZvZ, where it is hard to establish a 3rd base vs a player going muta.

Just my opinion, i hope you read it :P
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Posts: 1,067
02/03/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
We’d like to make a small balance patch this week in order to help address PvT concerns, as well as implement a small fix for Daedalus point. Of the changes we’ve tested so far, we feel ready to make the Time Warp and EMP changes right now, but we’ll continue testing other changes as well in case we need to make further adjustments.

We’ll try our best to make these changes within a week:
- Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100

- Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in

- Make the natural expansion ramp smaller on Daedalus Point.


Here are a few things we’d like to continue testing on a new balance test map:
- We’d like to try out a sight range nerf to the Mothership Core, as commonly requested by the community. We also believe this could be a really solid direction if the Time Warp and EMP changes aren’t enough.

- We’d still like to include a Hydralisk buff (but not as big as the current one we’re testing) of some sort for two reasons: To bring more Hydras into play in ZvZ as well as help Roach/Hydra to be more viable vs. Terran.

- Late game PvZ in Europe is something we’d still like to look into testing/addressing. Looking at games in Korea, we’d still like to keep testing the Tempest change and not touch Swarm Hosts themselves if we can.

Please keep the discussions happening and constructive feedback is always welcome. Thank you.


We will see how this plays out... I can imagine that the ghost is now a bit too strong against high templar openings... we will see
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Posts: 1,869
02/03/2014 11:37 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
02/03/2014 11:32 AMPosted by Roland
This is 100% true. Let's tone down the drama a tad Robo. I've noticed a significant increase in it lately.


I don't know how telling someone that something isn't true drama.

What map i play on significantly affects my play, and that is a fact.


But it shouldn't. You're just being a bit dramatic about it. You've created something (map imbalance) that isn't there. That is the definition of being dramatic.
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Posts: 1,252
MSC vision nerf is a must ,a small step in the right direction.
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Posts: 51
02/03/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
We’d still like to include a Hydralisk buff (but not as big as the current one we’re testing) of some sort for two reasons: To bring more Hydras into play in ZvZ as well as help Roach/Hydra to be more viable vs. Terran.


Yes please make non muta zvz wars.
If this Work out for you, so mutas are not the only viable option anymore the game will be complete at least for me as a zerg player. I have been realy fustrated with zvz since hots so please adress this properly.. TY
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Posts: 62
02/03/2014 11:38 AMPosted by Renideo
Honestly, while it's understandable that you like some of the high end swarm host play you see in korea, you could aim to make changes that will enhance *that* style by making the unit more suited to it. Leaving it alone entirely and adding additional modifiers to the tempest (+20 damage to air-biological-sultry units) is not necessarily the best way forward.

The hydra buff was never going to be a workable option, and for the most part this has wasted time that could have been spent considering and testing a different hydra buff-- which is far more reasonable. I honestly think the hydra and stalker both need relatively late game buffs designed not to break existing timings, and that these have to realistically come alongside other changes.

That said, it's good to see the balance team back away from the precipice fairly rapidly. Not as encouraging as it would be if they'd never even considered undertaking a dramatic shift in the opportunity cost of a core unit without regard to what problems they felt the unit had, or what improvements they wanted to see. We'll take what we can get though.

Knocking the Msc's vision down by 2 would be a reasonable direction at this point.


About your last sentence:
" Knocking the Msc's vision down by 2 would be a reasonable direction at this point "

you are a complete joke, reducing 2 points of vision is the same useless buff for siege tank decreasing his attack from 3 seconds to 2.8 seconds , what a joke . it doesn't change anything... if you want to see a really effect in p vs t you should nerf the sight from (14) to 7 and would stop a lot the abussive blink all ins for sure
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Posts: 1,069
Game is decided by the first or second timewarp this nerf is nothing need sight range nerf now..
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Posts: 12,376
+1. Step in the right direction, but more needs to be done. Either a MSC vision nerf or reducing photon overcharge to 45 seconds is the way to go. I like the idea of a toned down hydra buff as it's a delicate balance that cannot be ignored. Glad that tempests are not getting buffed atm.
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Posts: 2,460
02/03/2014 11:37 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
02/03/2014 11:32 AMPosted by Roland
This is 100% true. Let's tone down the drama a tad Robo. I've noticed a significant increase in it lately.


I don't know how telling someone that something isn't true drama.

What map i play on significantly affects my play, and that is a fact.


A larger issue for you is you've lost a TON of your credibility already, and may have lost the last bit when people spread that hilarious video of you attempting to show off your body and playing basketball for us.
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Posts: 301
Hydra HP or armor buff is perfect. They are a little too squishy for a lair tech unit that costs 100/50.
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