StarCraft® II

Balance Patch, New Test Map, and Daedalus Fix

Posts: 62
Finally a little encouraged from the way you've adjusted the changes, Blizz.

MSC vision is a fantastic thing to change as it is one of the most frustrating parts of the unit.

Time warp cost increase is a good start, but a full energy MSC will still be able to cast two time warps, so the nerf is imo still not strong enough. Anyway both of these nerfs coming so close together tells me you are admitting that a change to TvP is necessary so that's great.

Two other ideas I think you should consider (not necessarily make all of the changes but one or two):

Don't allow a MSC to warp in with so much energy. If a Protoss player derps his stalker(s), zealot, and MSC into Terran base in order to kill maximum amount of scv's, he should NEVER be allowed to chrono-boost a new MSC AND photon overcharge the nexus by the time the Terran attempts to counter. I mean Protoss has force field....what more stalling power do they need?

Nerf Photon overcharge casting radius (which is currently 10). Being able to float the MSC in between two nexus and cast Photon Overcharge on one or both of them with minimal effort is a little ridiculous I think. The Protoss player should have to select which base is a higher defense priority and use other means to try to deflect attacks at the other until the MSC can float over.

On the Ghost change, I play Terran but the energy thing makes no sense and in no way fixes anything broken in the TvP matchup that I know of. If I were going to get ghosts, I would get them timed with the upgrade anyway. I can't say that I certainly lose a TvP because I couldn't get ghosts with energy out in time necessarily. Are you just trying to convince Korean Terrans to make ghosts?

Hydra Change: I know almost nothing about PvZ or ZvZ but the originally proposed change was laughable, and I think you've realized that. Just listen to the community. They play the game every day.

Daedalus: Obviously great change. Not sure what you were thinking in PvZ in the first place. It hasn't been abused against me much in ZvT but I always thought if Zerg was willing to commit they could do damage with that natural size.
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Posts: 5,360
02/03/2014 12:14 PMPosted by pasildan
About your last sentence:
" Knocking the Msc's vision down by 2 would be a reasonable direction at this point "

you are a complete joke, reducing 2 points of vision is the same useless buff for siege tank decreasing his attack from 3 seconds to 2.8 seconds , what a joke . it doesn't change anything... if you want to see a really effect in p vs t you should nerf the sight from (14) to 7 and would stop a lot the abussive blink all ins for sure


Why thank you, I am a complete joke, touche. The sight range of most ground units is around 9, air units 11 or so. The Msc is very slow moving, as such 11 is a lower bound for its sight range.

Thank you for your input, your thoughts are important to us, and we look forward to your feedback in the future.
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Posts: 132
02/03/2014 11:39 AMPosted by Incubus
Nooo! Don't change Daedalus Point! It's nice having a map that forces people to play different and games to be more aggressive. I'm tired of all these macro maps. If people don't like it just veto it you've got 3 of them for freak sakes.


The problem is the pro players have to play on it and its imbalanced.
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Posts: 221
02/03/2014 11:42 AMPosted by Solaris
Also a good change to help address early tvp would be to remove ebay requirement for turrets so we don't just flat out die to an oracle or to a dt.. still get crippled quite possibly but wont instant lose. Also highly recommend reverting oracle speed. And there you have it.. a crappy gold league opinion :-)


This is a non-issue. The earliest oracles can arrive in your base in 5:30. In order to do that, the protoss has to be incredibly obvious about it, ie 1-2 pylons in their base (instead of 3), proxying right next to your base, etc. There are so many tells that it just isn't a problem. I have tried repeatedly to make proxy oracle 3gate all-in work against masters, but it just doesn't. It has been figured out.

02/03/2014 11:55 AMPosted by Solaris
oracle, dt, and blink are the problems for Terran in early game.. revert oracle speed, nerf MC vision, and Remove ebay requirement for turret should fix the match up for the most part.


Oracle and DT are not an issue. Blink + MSC is debatable.

You're gold, don't talk about balance.
Edited by BigFoot on 2/3/2014 12:32 PM PST
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 24,141
As for Hydralisk buffs, Mr. Kim, these three from my thread have received relatively popular responses, especially #2:

01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
1. Decrease Hydralisk Mineral cost - 75m 50g seems much more reasonable than 100m 25g.

2. Increase Hydralisk Anti-air range with Grooved Spines - have it increase AA by 2 instead of by 1. This will help vs Protoss air units and even the Colossus.

3. Increase Hydralisk HP - +10 HP maybe? (Might be OP but deserves testing.)

Would be awesome if you would consider testing some of these.

As for the rest, I'm very happy to hear the Time Warp nerf is going through. I'm close to indifferent about the Ghost buff, but it definitely will help lategame TvP. And the change to Daedalus Point is badly needed.

For the Mothership Core sight range nerf, I believe 12 radius as opposed to the currently enormous 14 (remember, radius scales pretty hard) would be a very reasonable nerf to test. 11 would be a bit more extreme, and 10 would definitely be way too small. Any way, can't wait to hear what radius the team settles on.

I truly hope the Hydralisk does get buffed. It needs it.
Edited by Doncroft on 2/3/2014 12:31 PM PST
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Posts: 1,434
02/03/2014 12:27 PMPosted by BigFoot

You're gold, don't talk about balance.


and you've posted nothing that couldn't be looked up anywhere, so your league has zero influence on what you've posted.

get off your high horse.
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Posts: 62
02/03/2014 11:42 AMPosted by Solaris
MC vision nerf is definitely needed. Time warp change does nothing, but is a step in the right direction. Ghost buff.. Not sure if this a good or bad thing.. "definitely not a buff to mech" Daedalus change is good. Hydra buff of some type might be ok but not the one you previously proposed, and since you recognize that that's good. Sidestepping the SH problem by trying to buffing the tempest or something else is stupid.. Might consider nerfing your ego's and admit the SH is a horribly designed unit and address it directly opposed to sidestepping. Also a good change to help address early tvp would be to remove ebay requirement for turrets so we don't just flat out die to an oracle or to a dt.. still get crippled quite possibly but wont instant lose. Also highly recommend reverting oracle speed. And there you have it.. a crappy gold league opinion :-)


I'm terran in master league on N.A server.

Completely agreed with this guy in one point...

Blizzard: if you can decrease your ego, you can fix MOST of the early game protoss all ins in terran vs protoss by doing this:

- Remove requirement of enginnery bay to make MISSILE TURRETS and SENSOR TOWERS.

Why?
- Because you can get so way many more options without breaking up your economy in early game by making the enginnery bay due to his high cost of minerals in that time of the game.

- You can react SO MUCH way better and FAST if you scouts the all-in that your protoss oponnent tries to do against you.

Most of the troubles with protoss all ins in Terran vs Protoss it's because you have no idea about the all-in your oponnent is going to do and... if you discovers what he is gonna do, it's very late to react due to the speed from oracles or warp-in of stalkers / dark templars.

So basically that's where takes place to make turrets / sensor towers without making enginnery bay.
This last point is the same about what you did when allowing the siege tanks to be build without needing to research the siege mode.

And the second problem with protoss all ins is that when you tries to react against protoss all-ins (considering you have no idea about what he is doing) is that you wastes so much resources just in defenses instead of barracks / scvs / marines or marauders which are suppose to be the units who will stop the all in so by eliminating the requirement of enginnery bay for turrets / sensor towers you are allowing the terran to don't break up his economy to stop the unexpected protoss all-in in case he doesn't know it.

Last tip: Blizzard you have to nerf your ego, you doesn't listen to comunity and that's one of the most reasons why most part of people are leaving your game, you won't give feedback about " BALANCE ISSUES " and that's a huge mistake from a company.
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Posts: 550
I liked the idea of 1.5 supply Hydras also. More massy in the late-game. Swarm like.
Could make it a more viable comp to add to the ones that already exist.

Also fixing the damage point micro things would be huge. Microable Hydras would be fun.
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 24,141
02/03/2014 12:31 PMPosted by pasildan
- Remove requirement of enginnery bay to make MISSILE TURRETS and SENSOR TOWERS.

There's no reason to nerf the Banshee, friend.
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Posts: 1,434
02/03/2014 12:31 PMPosted by Isarios
I liked the idea of 1.5 supply Hydras also. More massy in the late-game. Swarm like.
Could make it a more viable comp to add to the ones that already exist.

Also fixing the damage point micro things would be huge. Microable Hydras would be fun.


2 hydras per egg would be lol
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Posts: 221
02/03/2014 12:30 PMPosted by andrew
02/03/2014 12:27 PMPosted by BigFoot

You're gold, don't talk about balance.


and you've posted nothing that couldn't be looked up anywhere, so your league has zero influence on what you've posted.

get off your high horse.


I suppose you could look up the information I posted, but I don't see how it is any less valid. My league has very little to do with this.

Oracle allin in PvT is not a real issue. It is easily scouted and defended for the reasons I mentioned.

02/03/2014 12:30 PMPosted by andrew

get off your high horse.


You're such a cute little silver.
Edited by BigFoot on 2/3/2014 12:38 PM PST
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Posts: 5,360
02/03/2014 12:28 PMPosted by Doncroft
For the Mothership Core sight range nerf, I believe 12 radius as opposed to the currently enormous 14 (remember, radius scales pretty hard) would be a very reasonable nerf to test. 11 would be a bit more extreme, and 10 would definitely be way too small. Any way, can't wait to hear what radius the team settles on.


Yeah, agreed. 12 feels right under the circumstances.
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Posts: 34
Possible smaller Hydralisk buffs:

- Grooved Spines increase attack range by +2
or
- Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Grooved Spines increases attack range to 7.
Either of those increases the zoning capability against air, and makes hydralisks able to fire from a safer distance.

- Hydralisk attack changed to do 15 (+2 per ugprade) damage with an attack cooldown of 1.05
The basic damage output stays the same, but the Hydralisk gets a little bit better at sniping fast moving targets such as medivacs and frontloaded damage is in general a little bit better than more steady damage output. On top of that, hydralisks now upgrade with +2 which makes them stronger in fully upgraded lategame scenarios. And the slower attack speed allows for a little bit extra kiting capability. My favorite idea.

- Hydralisk hit points from 80 to 90
or
- Hydralisk Armor from 0 to 1
Either of those makes hydralisks a little beefier.

- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0.
Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
Edited by Jay on 2/3/2014 12:38 PM PST
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Posts: 10

We will see how this plays out... I can imagine that the ghost is now a bit too strong against high templar openings... we will see


I would like to point out that the ghost still cost a lot! Also ghost EMP is not a lock on like the feedback ghost must land great to do anything. Ghost EMP is expensive compared to spam storm. EMP = 75 storm = 50

02/03/2014 12:10 PMPosted by roarbot
But, if that can't happen, Hydras need a change. Right now, they are a glass cannon that die to all forms of AoE and are pretty slow, and require 2 upgrades to become useful. Even then, compositions with the hydralisk lose to most protoss and mech deathballs. It's just not a lategame unit, yet it is one of the only AA units zerg has.The hydralisk needs to be made a 75/25 unit. This would fix a couple of things .1: will help with getting hydras out faster, do deal with fast voids, phoenix, and units that FLY.2: this will help in ZvZ, where it is hard to establish a 3rd base vs a player going muta.


why don't we just make the Hydra a splash unit too. 75/25 is way too cheap, I would agree that dealing with air units is tough but you are very narrow minded as this would break lots of the ZVT matchup. If you are going to fix air problems I think they should slow the muta. Maybe it comes from being a terran but Zerg and Protoss don't build much static D until late game maybe start spores earlier
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 24,141
02/03/2014 12:37 PMPosted by Renideo
02/03/2014 12:28 PMPosted by Doncroft
For the Mothership Core sight range nerf, I believe 12 radius as opposed to the currently enormous 14 (remember, radius scales pretty hard) would be a very reasonable nerf to test. 11 would be a bit more extreme, and 10 would definitely be way too small. Any way, can't wait to hear what radius the team settles on.


Yeah, agreed. 12 feels right under the circumstances.

If you do the math, that's just over a 25% reduction in sight area. Significant but not severe enough to nerf the unit into uselessness as a spotter. :D
Edited by Doncroft on 2/3/2014 12:39 PM PST
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Posts: 929
I'm totally okay with the terran ghost buff and timewarp nerf to give protoss a weaker early game and terran a stronger midgame (even though they didn't need it), and I think that the MSC vision nerf could be good too if PvT is still largely protoss favored, but I strongly recommend waiting to see the effects of these nerfs first. Two buffs/nerfs can have a compounding effect larger than just one, and throwing a 3rd right away could easily reverse the situation that exists now... and for selfish reasons, I don't want MSC vision nerfed too much, because it's critical for scouting in PvP.
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Posts: 1,434
02/03/2014 12:36 PMPosted by BigFoot

I suppose you could look up the information I posted, but I don't see how it is any less valid. My league has very little to do with this.

Oracle allin in PvT is not a real issue. It is easily scouted and defended for the reasons I mentioned.

02/03/2014 12:30 PMPosted by andrew

get off your high horse.


You're such a cute little silver.


that's my point exactly, your league has nothing to do with it, just like anybody elses league has nothing to do with it. i'm fairly certain that i've seen pro/semi-pro players suggest what you've shot down and pulled the league card on.

i've seen dumb suggests by masters players as well as bronze players. even GM players have had stupid ideas and opinions. didn't avilo say that combining mech/air upgrades wouldn't do anything to help?
Edited by andrew on 2/3/2014 12:44 PM PST
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Posts: 7

The earliest oracles can arrive in your base in 5:30.
.


They can come at 5:00 and theoretically maybe 10 seconds faster.
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Posts: 2
Blizzard not for first time demonstrate how much they hate zerg race. Why the zerg have just..... 0 updates .... when you nerf the MSC time warp energy cost.... WHO CARES ????? Cuz the protoss need only 1 Time Warp to win the game.... This game is so disbalanced ... like in WoL at the begining stages..... Pls MAKE Only 1 good update for Zerg Race if possible.... cmon blizzard you can do this i HOPE you can..... Why now you give the Ghost Full energy when he comes out from the barracks and rejected this for the VIPER.... Cuz have to loose all the games against protoss... that's why this game will die soon.
Edited by llllllllll on 2/3/2014 12:48 PM PST
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Posts: 5,360
Blizzard not for first time demonstrate how *** they are. Why the zerg have just..... 0 updates .... when you nerf the MSC time warp energy cost.... WHO GIVES A !@#$ ????? Cuz the protoss need only 1 Time Warp to win the game.... This game is so disbalanced ... like in WoL at the begining stages..... Pls MAKE Only 1 good update for Zerg Race if possible.... cmon blizzard you can do this i HOPE you can..... Why now you give the Ghost Full energy when he comes out from the barracks and rejected this for the VIPER.... Cuz have to loose all the %^-*ing games against protoss... that's why this game will die soon.


If the game dies, it'll probably be more to do with the community degrading to the point where posts on balance sound like this.

Read the OP. Note that it's rushing the changes that they feel are safe into the game. Note that they are still testing other changes. Formulate a response. Articulate it in a way they might understand. If you have time, stop to consider that your personal frustrations on ladder are not indicative of the game's long term prospects, anymore than anyone else's were in any other given period where an imbalance *or perceived* imbalance existed.
Edited by Renideo on 2/3/2014 12:49 PM PST
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