StarCraft® II

Call to Action: January 31 Balance Testing

Posts: 1,536
My thoughts:

Terran:
-Ghost mineral cost reduced by 50, making the cost 150/100 and keep the upgrade there, of course I'm all for that extra 25 Energy removing the upgrade anyway since Ghosts need to be more viable and a instant ready EMP is always helpful especially in tight spots.
-Remove Ebay requirement to make turrets and sensor towers, I know we'll get EBay eventually for our upgrades but it hurts out economy to be forced into buying the Ebay just to get one or two turrets or a sensor tower to prevent BS Protoss early game moves, you know what I mean, protoss players will probably say no because they're already getting easier wins as it is.
-Armory cost should be made to be 125/50 because if you're going for mech which is very gas heavy and you want Terran to play mech more so there you go, a reason to go mech.
-Maybe give turrets an upgrade to do area damage verse clumps of mutalisks or maybe extra damage verse light? I prefer area damage because Zerg got the spore buff to 3 shot mutalisks and those heavily deter them in ZvZ only and widow mines don't really do the job and we can't always have our army split so I thought turrets should actually mean something in the later game verse muta clouds that wreck economy for late game severely kicking us back, removing EBay requirement wont effect the muta cloud play because the EBay is always up far before the mutalisk are and will only greatly protect us from early game Oracle.
-Tanks should have EMP shells upgrade to do an extra +5? damage in tank mode and +15? in Siege Mode verse protoss only, maybe cost 150/150 at Factory Tech Lab

Zerg
-Remove Baneling damage verse light, take out that lame +15 verse light but add their total damage from 20 to 25 to +3 damage per upgrade instead of +2 each upgrade.
-Give Roaches +8 damage verse light, they'd be able to hold off clumps of marines better and same with hellion/hellbat attacks. Roaches with extra damage verse light will be a bigger deterrent to hellion/hellbat and honestly zergling, baneling, muta is getting ridiculous when that's all I see 80% of my TvZs
-Increase Hydralisk HP by 20, 80 HP is almost equivalent to the marine's with shield plus Marines with stim out DPS the Hydra OR give the hydra range damage upgrades to add +2 damage instead of +1.
-Make mutalisks a little slower in movement so they're not moving at the same pace as marines on stim and muta clouds we can't really stop even if we have a widow mine or two widow mine's splash damage is garbage now and if there's an overseer, which there normally is, they're destroyed before they activate. Slower moving mutalisk will be easier to take care of and muta flocks are stupidly difficult to deal with unless you have a bunker in place with marines already inside.
-Lower burrow cost already lol.
-Maybe merge Zerg ground attacks, range and melee, to allow a more diverse army than just Zergling/Baneling then we might see a more "Swarmy" feeling to the zerg because you'll see a lot more than just a pure unit composition which is dreadfully boring.
-Thinking about a roach passive ability to slow targets like in HOTS Campaign but instead of by 80% after stacking so much to about 10~20% or at least give Viper an ability to slow enemy movement and attacks by a %

Protoss
-Decrease MSC vision Range, it's stupid how MSC removed the protoss' need for observers because they scout things before they even show up on your screen so it's very low risk high reward.
-Decrease PO range or damage so it doesn't always shut down every attack and requires the protoss to actually make a defensive force so they can't be super greedy.
-Increase Time Warp cost to 125 or Make it affect their own units by a fraction of what it affects the enemies.
-Increase cost of blink to 200/200 because that'll delay the blink all-in more, but only if MSC vision isn't decreased because it's retarded how rewarding their attacks are compared their risk.
-Mass Recall should be a MotherShip ability not a core ability because it's friggin stupid how they can quickly retreat back to base from a botched attack that could have lost them game or what could have made it equal by giving them a bigger edge.
-Oracle still needs to lose some movement speed or damage verse light.
Reply Quote
Posts: 346
02/01/2014 09:56 PMPosted by Ben
. When boxer tried to contact David Kim he didnt even care to respond. So damn arrogant.

And now they come with yet another patch with changes that no one is asking for.


What is the basis for either of these claims? How do you know boxer tried to contact David Kim and was rebuffed? How do you know that people aren't asking for some of these changes? Maybe boxer was trying to contact David Kim to encourage a Tempest buff and David didn't respond because it was already in the works. . .

Also, please explain why David Kim is required to respond to boxer. Does every pro player have a right to speak personally with the balance team leader? Don't you think maybe David Kim and his team are already talking to a bunch of pro players? Why must boxer have input?

I sense that you're looking for excuses to criticize David Kim, because you've decided to make him a scapegoat for your frustrations.


When IloveooV was interviewed (one of the key Terran players during the BW era) after his military service was finished and reinstated as the head coach of SKT1's SC team, he mentioned this in his interview. Boxer or Lim Yo Hwan sent him a lengthy written letter to DK on his thoughts on design and balance but he never got a response back. This was obviously long time ago..

But the point is that they say they listen to the pros but who are these pros that they keep mentioning? Even the pros themselves dont know who these are.

Id think Lim Yo Hwan or Boxer does need a little bit more respect.. seeing as the only reason we see SC to this day is mainly due to him.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,544
Am I the only one here who thinks Photon Overcharge nerf will make zero difference?
Reply Quote
Posts: 22
02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
My thoughts:


Some nice ideas there I think, but some are also weird I think, here's my thought about these :

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
-Ghost mineral cost reduced by 50, making the cost 150/100 and keep the upgrade there, of course I'm all for that extra 25 Energy removing the upgrade anyway since Ghosts need to be more viable and a instant ready EMP is always helpful especially in tight spots


I think either leave the upgrade and don't touch the ghost OR remove the upgrade but increase the gas price on the ghost academy.
It's ridiculous in my opinion to get a ghost academy and a free energy upgrade for 50 gas.
I think 150 or 200 gas for the building is good if you drop the upgrade, ghosts would come with faster EMPs but not cheaper ones wich is my concern with the free upgrade.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
-Remove Ebay requirement to make turrets and sensor towers


Just AA turrets, sensor turrets are too powerful to have no requirements I think.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Armory cost should be made to be 125/50 because if you're going for mech which is very gas heavy and you want Terran to play mech more so there you go, a reason to go mech.


I don't think that's the way to encourage mech play, but I don't really see this breaking the game also so why not.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Maybe give turrets an upgrade to do area damage verse clumps of mutalisks or maybe extra damage verse light?


No, and no.
A turret does 24 damage every .86sec, and can be repaired.
The bonus damage on the spore is a stupid thing in ZvZ already, don't give it to Terrans now.
I'm all for trying to prevent mass muta in ZvT but that's not the way to go.
Maybe an upgrade to increase turret HP could be a better choice.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Tanks should have EMP shells upgrade to do an extra +5? damage in tank mode and +15? in Siege Mode verse protoss only, maybe cost 150/150 at Factory Tech Lab


AWESOME IDEA.
Nothing to say about that, exept that this bonus damage should bypass the imortal shield.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Remove Baneling damage verse light, take out that lame +15 verse light but add their total damage from 20 to 25 to +3 damage per upgrade instead of +2 each upgrade


This seems like a good idea.
Until you play ZvZ and get all in'd by speedlings.
Banelings need to one shot zerglings to have a good defence in ZvZ otherwise you're doomed.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Give Roaches +8 damage verse light, they'd be able to hold off clumps of marines better and same with hellion/hellbat attacks. Roaches with extra damage verse light will be a bigger deterrent to hellion/hellbat and honestly zergling, baneling, muta is getting ridiculous when that's all I see 80% of my TvZs


Something like that could be seen as an upgrade in the roach warren, and it would make the roach a little less useless, especially against terran.
However, I think +8 is a little bit too much, maybe just +5.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Increase Hydralisk HP by 20, 80 HP is almost equivalent to the marine's with shield plus Marines with stim out DPS the Hydra OR give the hydra range damage upgrades to add +2 damage instead of +1.


I'm more for a buff on hydras AA attacks.
Maybe split the hydras attacks in two : ground and air, and give it a boost on AA, it's already powerful enough on the ground I think.
An upgrade to increase HP could be nice though.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Make mutalisks a little slower in movement so they're not moving at the same pace as marines on stim


Mutas have to be faster than stimed marines, otherwise they'd be shredded anytime they come near a terran army.
I'm for a speed nerf though, but not unless the medivac's boost gets the same amount of reduction.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Maybe merge Zerg ground attacks, range and melee


Or at least lower the price of both.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Thinking about a roach passive ability to slow targets like in HOTS Campaign but instead of by 80% after stacking so much to about 10~20% or at least give Viper an ability to slow enemy movement and attacks by a %


I'd like a spell on the viper working like blinding cloud, but reducing attack speed by 40-50% (?) instead of range for 125-150 energy.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Decrease MSC vision Range


It's been asked for so long, I don't know why it's never been even tested.

02/02/2014 01:02 AMPosted by Ghost
Decrease PO range or damage so it doesn't always shut down every attack and requires the protoss to actually make a defensive force so they can't be super greedy.


Just reducing it's time by an actual value and not 10 mere seconds would be enough I think.
Reply Quote
Posts: 520
once again blizz are trying to repair the game where it is not broken.
Reply Quote
Posts: 682
02/02/2014 02:19 AMPosted by YyapSsap
02/01/2014 09:56 PMPosted by Ben
...

What is the basis for either of these claims? How do you know boxer tried to contact David Kim and was rebuffed? How do you know that people aren't asking for some of these changes? Maybe boxer was trying to contact David Kim to encourage a Tempest buff and David didn't respond because it was already in the works. . .

Also, please explain why David Kim is required to respond to boxer. Does every pro player have a right to speak personally with the balance team leader? Don't you think maybe David Kim and his team are already talking to a bunch of pro players? Why must boxer have input?

I sense that you're looking for excuses to criticize David Kim, because you've decided to make him a scapegoat for your frustrations.


When IloveooV was interviewed (one of the key Terran players during the BW era) after his military service was finished and reinstated as the head coach of SKT1's SC team, he mentioned this in his interview. Boxer or Lim Yo Hwan sent him a lengthy written letter to DK on his thoughts on design and balance but he never got a response back. This was obviously long time ago..

But the point is that they say they listen to the pros but who are these pros that they keep mentioning? Even the pros themselves dont know who these are.

Id think Lim Yo Hwan or Boxer does need a little bit more respect.. seeing as the only reason we see SC to this day is mainly due to him.


There are all kinds of reasons why David Kim might not have responded even if he read the letter and considered it carefully. Maybe he was too busy at the time.

Guess what. I can write a lengthy letter to President Obama laying out my thoughts on a number of issues about which I am quite expert. Suppose it somehow happens that an advisor reads the letter, decides Obama should read it, passes it along to him, and then Obama reads it and thinks deeply about my main points. Even if all of that happens, should I expect a response from the president? I don't think so. David Kim, obviously, is not quite as busy as the president, but I'm just illustrating a point.
Reply Quote
Posts: 108
02/01/2014 09:56 PMPosted by Ben
. When boxer tried to contact David Kim he didnt even care to respond. So damn arrogant.

And now they come with yet another patch with changes that no one is asking for.


What is the basis for either of these claims? How do you know boxer tried to contact David Kim and was rebuffed? How do you know that people aren't asking for some of these changes? Maybe boxer was trying to contact David Kim to encourage a Tempest buff and David didn't respond because it was already in the works. . .

Also, please explain why David Kim is required to respond to boxer. Does every pro player have a right to speak personally with the balance team leader? Don't you think maybe David Kim and his team are already talking to a bunch of pro players? Why must boxer have input?

I sense that you're looking for excuses to criticize David Kim, because you've decided to make him a scapegoat for your frustrations.


1. because people on sktelecom t1(including the head coach) has said that boxer tried to contact david kim and was completely ignored

2. Plenty of pros have spoken out and said blizzard hasnt listened once to their input.

3. If you dont understand why theres a problem when a balance team doesnt listen to the people who actually knows the game the best, then theres not much more to say. The results however speak for themselves. The balance team has not managed to get a balanced game nor a well designed game in all this time, why? For one because they never listen. Theyre too arrogant to think that any outside feedback is viable, and instead they force down patches down our throats that no one wants. No one asked for oracle speed buff, people asked for more utility to the oracle lategame. Many pros spoke out during testing and said the oracle speedbuff was completely missing the mark, but did blizzard listen? No, they put it in anyway, and now the game is in a worse state than during broodlord infestor. The game is dying and most of the players who actually still play it are giving up hope. Blizzard never reverts bad changes, they never say "ok that wasnt the change this game needed lets go back on that". No, because theyre so damn arrogant and never listen to constructive feedack. There has been tons and tons of good feedback from players and pros alike, suggestions such as the ones I proposed (many of which have already been said by others again and again). But does blizzard listen? no. They come up with yet another bandaid for a broken matchup. THe problem pvz isnt the tempest, its the swarmhost.

also you dont have to be a genius to understand why airunits with incredibly long range make for bad design.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,254
I can't believe the amount of theory crafting that goes on this thread.

This is a CALL TO ACTION !

And SC2 is a concrete game where balance doesn't always turn out as expected.

Go play the &$#!$ map, post your replays and stop writing BS!

This is why Blizzard doesn't give a damn about our opinions and they shouldn't when people prefer to invent all sorts of arguments to justify their emotional responses instead of actually testing things when they give us the opportunity to do so.
Edited by Azoryen on 2/2/2014 5:51 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,254
01/31/2014 04:46 PMPosted by Spyrian
Once you've played a few games on the test map, please feel free to let us know what you think of the changes by leaving a comment in this thread.


Once you've played a few games on the test map.


01/31/2014 04:46 PMPosted by Spyrian
Once you've played


01/31/2014 04:46 PMPosted by Spyrian
played


IS THAT CLEAR?
Reply Quote
Posts: 197
I didn't seem to be able to make as many hydralisks as I originally thought
I ran out of minerals and had excessive gas.

I suppose this will be really great in lategame when you are floating minerals and gas is starving.
Reply Quote
Posts: 655
I dont care!

And thats wonderful!

Thanks to your extension mods I dont have to care about these bumbling attempts to balance the game. I have Lurkers, Scourge, Lockdown, Vortex, Reavers, Dragoons, Zerg moving slowly when burried on creep, mothership core vision nerf/speed buff, oracle range buff, brutalisks, faster terran buildings, warp gate research that makes gateways warp units in faster, infestor with permanent NP on small units, widow mines that reveal themselves for a second after firing, boost medivacs whose boost costs energy or deals damage, faster firing tempests (same dps, less overkill).

Ahhhh so luxiourously relaxing, no longer careing about the broken ladder, foolish nerfs or missing core units.

Look for SC2-FunFixedFinlly-V1.0.0 extension mod coming this spring!
Edited by TheG on 2/2/2014 6:24 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,313
You mean you are not making a balance mod?
Reply Quote
Posts: 11,080
Other than units like the Siege Tank or the Brood War Vulture that actually have an interesting mechanic to shake things up, most units are just boring reskins with stats.

While too true about too many units, I feel the Hydralisk is one of the worst.
Marines have Stim and some nice Medivac support to make Stim worthwhile.
Stalkers have Blink, and good natural Shield regen to make Blink micro worthwhile.
Hydralisks have Burrow, and... well I thought a nice hole where they could be made more interesting.
Reply Quote
Posts: 19
nothing about swarm host, a completly un necessary buff for zerg who already owns in zvp.

if you want to nerf blink SO badly just fix the blink upgrade but dont make such a big change on MSC

instead of buffing tempest, you should just make mothership unit impossible to pull with vipers, that would be the most logical thing to do
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,360
The changes are basically fine, except for the hydra change which remains as ever one of the more amusingly stupid things they've come up with, and a tragic indication of how they think about the game.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,254
02/02/2014 07:55 AMPosted by Renideo
The changes are basically fine, except for the hydra change which remains as ever one of the more amusingly stupid things they've come up with, and a tragic indication of how they think about the game.


02/02/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Azoryen
I can't believe the amount of theory crafting that goes on this thread.

This is a CALL TO ACTION !

And SC2 is a concrete game where balance doesn't always turn out as expected.

Go play the &$#!$ map, post your replays and stop writing BS!

This is why Blizzard doesn't give a damn about our opinions and they shouldn't when people prefer to invent all sorts of arguments to justify their emotional responses instead of actually testing things when they give us the opportunity to do so.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,254
BLOCK BALANCE TEST MAP TO FREE USERS!
Reply Quote
Posts: 12
pvz; zvp; zvz
terrans i faced only noobs :(
like 10 scv 8 marines AND a ghost acadamy of cource ...

hydras super working in early game
the cost reduction opens up real fun compositions and tech rather than boring compositions if not maxed only
the only problem is when 2|2 hydras are maxed the first time and hit third expansion.
there is just to many of em
but if you would subtract the half of em hydras they only die like flies as usual.

so the economic freedom and flexibility is very refreshing but the damage output might not.

in late game it could be appropriate again but never got so far
i wonder how it would turn out when putting the hydra upgrades to hive

if protoss gets the third reasonably early 10:00 walls it off with gateways
and the upgeades are missing on hydras. - 2|2 hydras are crushed by forcefields + colossus

guess its matter of ltp

i like the fact that hydras now seam cheap anough to use them as harasser too in tiniy packs
Edited by MerlinSAW on 2/2/2014 1:23 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 12
for the ghost the main problem is its overall cost
when its really supposed to be a mech unit so make the acadamy require armory not just factory
and reduce cost of ghosts fitting more to mech. it should be possibel to get them out on 2 base witch is currently not the case. hellions are prefered, doing a greate job in sucking out the minerals and adding mobility and HP to a meching army leaving no spare money for ghosts with flimsy hp added to the composition.

and maby even put the cloak upgrade to rax techlab
reseraching cloak OR building a nuke is anyway a strupid desicion
Edited by MerlinSAW on 2/2/2014 9:17 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,513
I just tested the Hydralisks.

I really enjoy the fact that I can continue making an army WHILE upgrading, simply for the fact that I can afford both now.

Obviously the Hydralisk is still weak, but its nice to see Protoss have a threat in the midgame again.
(as their design would suggest is their weakest moment)
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]