Hellbat buff needs to be reverted.

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With the recent update, we've been gathering feedback on the Hellbat change and observing how it's affecting the different match-ups. From what we've seen thus far, it's helped Terran pressure Zerg in the mid-game and slow down the their economy.

While we feel this has helped the match-up overall, it's still early and we'll need to see how strategies are altered to account for increased Hellbat usage. Often when a new balance update is applied we see a period of time where players adapt to the changes by creating new strategies and eventually counter strategies. It's important that we allow time for these kind of shifts before considering if further changes are needed.
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Thanks for the update, Psione.
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06/11/2014 07:43 PMPosted by Avarence
wow imagine you have to make a transition unit rather than stay on pure lings until mutas

cry more

I think roarbot is salt cause he didnt get a free promotion to grand masters like a bunch of other master zergs


Lets look at Maruader Hellbat for a sec shall we??

Lings: Roasted by Bats
Roachs: Maruaders good unit
Banelings: Maruaders good unit

Every other unit is too high on the tech tree (Other than Queen but you can't mass them up very easily), especially with early hellion eco damage.
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06/18/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Psione
With the recent update, we've been gathering feedback on the Hellbat change and observing how it's affecting the different match-ups. From what we've seen thus far, it's helped Terran pressure Zerg in the mid-game and slow down the their economy.

While we feel this has helped the match-up overall, it's still early and we'll need to see how strategies are altered to account for increased Hellbat usage. Often when a new balance update is applied we see a period of time where players adapt to the changes by creating new strategies and eventually counter strategies. It's important that we allow time for these kind of shifts before considering if further changes are needed.


Alright.
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06/18/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Psione
With the recent update, we've been gathering feedback on the Hellbat change and observing how it's affecting the different match-ups. From what we've seen thus far, it's helped Terran pressure Zerg in the mid-game and slow down the their economy.

While we feel this has helped the match-up overall, it's still early and we'll need to see how strategies are altered to account for increased Hellbat usage. Often when a new balance update is applied we see a period of time where players adapt to the changes by creating new strategies and eventually counter strategies. It's important that we allow time for these kind of shifts before considering if further changes are needed.


Your right it is definetly doing that. But at the same time its turning the MU into a allin fest. That's all I experienced on ladder with it so far. Either I Win with the hellbat push or I lose if he is prepared. Or the zerg just says F it and roach allins u. It is not creating good gameplay. The Wm use to create awesome macro games with action packed micro skirmishes all over the map. Terran literally has no answer to muta or mass baneling. So if ur hellbat attack fails u lose. It's even changed things like early hellion pressure. I don't even bother killing creep or trying to roast lings early game because I don't want to risk losing them for the push and I know I can just kill the creep when I do the hellbat push.
I'm not asking for a overnight change but can u guys at least take a look at the games b4 the wm patch and then look at the games like Taeja vs Jaedong series and ask urself what was more fun to watch and play.
I am not trying to be biased. I am winning almost all my TvZ's lately but they don't feel deserved. I am literally making 8-10 hellions a few marauders and 2 medivacs and a Moving to victory .... That's not ho starcraft should be. That's not how protoss should be either. Early game allins are fun to see once in a while but when they are to powerful it destroys MU's.
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No problems in ZvT with hellbats buff @ Platinum. Requires safe opening instead of greedy droning - that's exactly the purpose of hellbats buff. Unless Terran would develop something unbeatable there is no reason to revert it.
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Thanks for the update.

That being said. I think Zergs need to figure out that they can't just mass drone and 3 base against Terran anymore. Investment in an army or more early harass will need to be done to keep that Terran at a slower pace. Hellbat Marauder is no more powerful than a ling bane all-in that we have been seeing since the beginning of Sc2.
With Zerg able to get spines and spores with out an investment in an evo chamber, there is no reason they can't invest in base defense structures. Terran has to preemptively build an E-Bay and turrets against Toss just to keep the oracles and early DT rushes at bay.

In this case Zerg really need to learn new strats and only time and creativity will allow that to happen.
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06/18/2014 09:11 AMPosted by Damen
Either I Win with the hellbat push or I lose if he is prepared.


Why would you do hellbat push instead of harass ? Buff was intended to punish greedy zerg rather than all-in. Of course if you make mass hellions, I would make proportional number or roach. Don't see the reason why there is even an issue about it.
ps. make 4 hellions and pressure Zerg to go for lings or roach. If zerg goes for lings - make hellbats, if zerg goes for roach, make defence. Simple.
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06/18/2014 10:30 AMPosted by Xeno
06/18/2014 09:11 AMPosted by Damen
Either I Win with the hellbat push or I lose if he is prepared.


Why would you do hellbat push instead of harass ? Buff was intended to punish greedy zerg rather than all-in. Of course if you make mass hellions, I would make proportional number or roach. Don't see the reason why there is even an issue about it.
ps. make 4 hellions and pressure Zerg to go for lings or roach. If zerg goes for lings - make hellbats, if zerg goes for roach, make defence. Simple.


Since the hellbat buff I have yet to have a macro game with Z. I'm not gonna sit here and theory craft I'm just saying in my experience in diamond and from what I have seen in pro games this change has turned TvZ into a allin fest and it sucks because b4 the wm nerf the MU was absolutely awesome.
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06/18/2014 11:30 AMPosted by Damen
Since the hellbat buff I have yet to have a macro game with Z. I'm not gonna sit here and theory craft I'm just saying in my experience in diamond and from what I have seen in pro games this change has turned TvZ into a allin fest and it sucks because b4 the wm nerf the MU was absolutely awesome.

Right now a lot of zergs are allinning because Terrans haven't realised that they can very easily turn their hellbat builds into a defensive 3d CC upon seeing a roachwarren. When T sees a roach warren they should just bunker and 3d cc. They'll end up far ahead. When T start doing this Z will stop allinning and hellbat builds will become heavy pressure into a midgame with less eco than we were used to seeing before this patch. Give it a few weeks before judging it's become an allin fest, people are still figuring things out.
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Weird, I've been playing several matches on ladder and I haven't seen this hellbat timing ONCE. I'm plat tho, is this something just happening in diamond and up?
Edited by zerganator on 6/18/2014 2:21 PM PDT
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theyre basically unkillable with the medivacs and three marines.
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06/18/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Psione
From what we've seen thus far, it's helped Terran pressure Zerg in the mid-game and slow down the their economy.


All it did was add a way to kill zergs at the 8 minute mark.
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All it did was add a way to kill zergs at the 8 minute mark.


All it did was add a way to kill overly greedy zergs at the 8 minute mark. And there should be a way to kill overly greedy zergs early. If you make nothing but queens and reactive lings, you are taking a risk. In the past, there wasn't a good way to attack into this as a Terran, but now there is.

I used to play ZvT back in 2010 when the matchup really was Terran favored - reapers with bonus vs light, barracks-before-depot builds, BFH that 2-shotted drones, tanks that did 50 base damage to all units, bunker-walling the ramp to your main, 3 range roaches and Queens, sloooooooowverlords. ZvT wasn't unwinnable then, it was just harder, and it is far from unwinnable now. Just spend the 150 minerals for a roach warren and if you see a factory with a reactor, start making some roaches to defend.
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06/19/2014 08:20 AMPosted by CycoManiac
All it did was add a way to kill zergs at the 8 minute mark.


All it did was add a way to kill overly greedy zergs at the 8 minute mark. And there should be a way to kill overly greedy zergs early. If you make nothing but queens and reactive lings, you are taking a risk. In the past, there wasn't a good way to attack into this as a Terran, but now there is.

I used to play ZvT back in 2010 when the matchup really was Terran favored - reapers with bonus vs light, barracks-before-depot builds, BFH that 2-shotted drones, tanks that did 50 base damage to all units, bunker-walling the ramp to your main, 3 range roaches and Queens, sloooooooowverlords. ZvT wasn't unwinnable then, it was just harder, and it is far from unwinnable now. Just spend the 150 minerals for a roach warren and if you see a factory with a reactor, start making some roaches to defend.


You forgot to add that Roachs were -1 attack range.
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06/19/2014 08:32 AMPosted by Xeno
You forgot to add that Roachs were -1 attack range.

Haha 4 range roaches against 5rax reaper was some funny crap. Anyone who thinks the game is imbalanced now should try that patch out and see how they like it.
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06/18/2014 11:30 AMPosted by Damen
06/18/2014 10:30 AMPosted by Xeno
...

Why would you do hellbat push instead of harass ? Buff was intended to punish greedy zerg rather than all-in. Of course if you make mass hellions, I would make proportional number or roach. Don't see the reason why there is even an issue about it.
ps. make 4 hellions and pressure Zerg to go for lings or roach. If zerg goes for lings - make hellbats, if zerg goes for roach, make defence. Simple.


Since the hellbat buff I have yet to have a macro game with Z. I'm not gonna sit here and theory craft I'm just saying in my experience in diamond and from what I have seen in pro games this change has turned TvZ into a allin fest and it sucks because b4 the wm nerf the MU was absolutely awesome.


You are obviously doing something wrong. I have stated numerous times, with replays, that certain hellbat pushes do not effect your economy at all. How you are not winning after doing a push that doesnt set you behind at all is a you problem.
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06/19/2014 08:20 AMPosted by CycoManiac
All it did was add a way to kill zergs at the 8 minute mark.


All it did was add a way to kill overly greedy zergs at the 8 minute mark. And there should be a way to kill overly greedy zergs early. If you make nothing but queens and reactive lings, you are taking a risk. In the past, there wasn't a good way to attack into this as a Terran, but now there is.


Okay, Ill build pre-emptive roaches to defend an attack that might not even come, then when Im behind because I made units and not drones the main push will come kill me. Great.
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06/19/2014 09:19 AMPosted by TheLungy
Okay, Ill build pre-emptive roaches to defend an attack that might not even come, then when Im behind because I made units and not drones the main push will come kill me. Great.

If you build pre-emptive roaches you always can use them for harass attempt or limited map control.

You ever heard about scouting ?
Beside,you have to build ONLY one building, unlike T or P, to get a whole bunch of massive countering units in case you would need it. As long as you are not GSL player you can afford to spare a little bit of extra money to open a new branch for a whole tech.
Edited by Xeno on 6/19/2014 9:34 AM PDT
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