It's time for a new Balance Test Map

Posts: 395
06/28/2014 04:19 PMPosted by GroundZero
Make Raven/ Viking. You'll see how crappy Vipers actually are.


With bio?

Yes, with mech you make ravens and Vikings, obviously, but even then it's usually worth it to suicide the vipers in for the clouds anyway.

06/28/2014 04:07 PMPosted by komandirskie
Those changes do nothing. I've already listed changes that do a lot for T balance without breaking the game:
1) Revert oracle speed
2) Revert widow mine nerf in TvZ
3) Remove MSC nexus cannon/recall (for TvP and ZvP, MSC is a broken hero unit)

Reverting oracle speed doesn't really do much in TvP, to be honest. It was already stim speed. Acceleration buff helps it because of how it zooms around, but theoretically it should have been pretty untouchable with perfect control before the buff.

Reverting the Widow Mine completely is likely too far, hence my middle ground.

I don't like photon overcharge, but the game has been pushed forward with it in mind and its removal would break PvP and make it nigh unwatchable. This is a problem.
Edited by Winks on 6/28/2014 4:49 PM PDT
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06/28/2014 12:02 PMPosted by Felix
terran is fine

because you don't play terran and you're plat
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+1! Great ideas, and great explanations!
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nice work Winks !
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correction hellbats were OP vs zerg before the patch
as well as the widow mine

I been here since start of WoL

and the biggest drop in viewers/players was after people saw widow mines beat zerg single handedly with one shot. I remember seeing about 180k peole tuning into the tournament on stream and then watching everyone's disappointment (the people in the crowd at tournament) as pro zerg players lost to 1 widow mine shot
I watched every major tournament since WoL

bio train was to strong vs zerg already before this (as it is still)

no one EVER WANTS TO SEE THAT MESS AGAIN !
_____________________________________________________

Terrans have amazing harass methods already

hellbat timing now is insane !

widow mines still REALLY POWERFUL

drops

banshee harasss

THE BIO TRAIN ! (not beatable by zerg at all as long as terran plays perfect)
yes I tune into dragons games (as annoying as he is I just mute it)

Don't need to see QQ about ZvT when terran have it made

ravens are still an unbeatable late game army for zerg?

why don't you talk about this ?
go ahead !

cause zerg cannot beat ravens at all
Edited by KhanMachia on 6/28/2014 6:13 PM PDT
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Posts: 947
removing combat shield will help marine to not die to quick in early game and will maybe require less marine to fight against oracle but i dont know if it will be to op in other match up this treath is really interesting and precise very well done man i wish it will bring a new balence test map soon i think terran needs it
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Posts: 473
I think only one change would make TvZ a bit better overall, reduce to Combat shield upgrade to 50/50 and slightly reduce the research time. . Would not be a big change but would make early game marines a bit better. Give it a research time around the same as concussive shells.

Late game TvZ, the only problem is that terran don't have an air answer to Muta flocks.
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Posts: 47
TvZ bio early-game - okay.
TvZ bio mid-game - okay.
TvZ bio late-game - in favor of Z if Terran doesn't go for a mass-ravens or sky-terran, but it's gay, slow, stupid and expensive.

TvZ mech early-game - okay.
TvZ mech mid/late-game - dead because of swarmhost+mutalisk or swarmhosts+vipers+spores.

TvP bio early-game - in huge favor of P because of MSC and agressive openings.
TvP bio mid-game - okay.
TvP bio late-game - in favor of P. Colossus-Carrier/Tempest-Storm is the nightmare of any terran, now even some P pros goes for it sometimes.

TvP mech early-game - okay.
TvP mech mid-game/late-game - in favor of P due to immortals/skytoss/harassment options.

Overall:
1. Don't touch TvZ except swarmhost at this point. Maybe some cool styles will appear in nearest future.
2. MSC gives an huge advantage for a protoss in TvP, and it's snowballing into the late-game. Removing/redesigning it will be enough for everything (strength of P's agressive openings will be adequately reduced, early-game advantage won't snowball itself into the late-game anymore, some agressive openings in TvP and some variety will appear).
3. Tempest should be 6 supply, way too much cost-effective and supply-effective counter to BC's. Immortal is way too much effective against tanks too (can kill 3 sieged tanks and 2 unsieged).
Edited by DeLF on 6/29/2014 1:24 AM PDT
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Posts: 233
06/28/2014 03:43 PMPosted by kingofgames
Are you kidding me with that eiffel tower of text? If it takes you over 25 paragraphs to explain something in a post, then you're just rambling. I have a hard time believing people read all that.


I did read all that, and it was very interessting to follow his thoughts on that.

Also to the oracle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OudzcVWpVoA

At around 4:45 i was lmao tbh

I don't like it to be forced to go for 6 rines, one bunker, or a turret just in case there might be an oracle. It's a huge investment, the bunker besides, which can be salvaged. But still, you scout the P base, see 2 pylons 2 gas and 50 energy on the nexus and you can be sure to 90% there is a oracle comming, but NO way to prevent it from being built. Try sniping the pylon? GL HF P just sends stalker and maybe builds a 2nd pylon. And then you got that turret and the oracle will still survive, unless P doesnt care and lets it die to the turret. Being forced to build those 6 rines, the turret or the fast fax with WM is just... it limits the options T can do and makes the race very predictable, so there are few chances to catch P off guard. One thing i would love to have is Turret without ebay, i know it won't happen, and there are reasons for it, for sure, but still. There is no "investment" for P to go for this oracle.

Even if it deals no real dmg, it will be usefull later on, and forced T to react and spend a lot of ressources to be able to somehow deal with it.

TvZ seems to be fine for me, except lategame which can be very very hard for T at least with Bio. Mech seems to be strong but takes a long time until enough Ravens are out. There i think Z got a huge problem, as Z has no real anticaster like ghost with emp and snipe or HTs with feedback. Z got no caster which can really kill another caster in one or 2 spells.

With all the possible proxy locations it is hard enough to find and figure out what could come, but then you have to invest so much to be able to deal with a possibly threat.
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06/28/2014 03:43 PMPosted by kingofgames
Are you kidding me with that eiffel tower of text? If it takes you over 25 paragraphs to explain something in a post, then you're just rambling. I have a hard time believing people read all that.


There is a direct relation between having the stamina to read long texts and the ability to solve complex problems.
The ones who don't read it all just because it is too long for them are probably not contributing anything of interest anyways. Like you.
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Posts: 213
06/29/2014 01:01 AMPosted by CSPARROW
I think only one change would make TvZ a bit better overall, reduce to Combat shield upgrade to 50/50 and slightly reduce the research time. . Would not be a big change but would make early game marines a bit better. Give it a research time around the same as concussive shells.


marine are fine, dont need that at all, the problem come from oracle, fix oracle.
if u change this value, this will make new imbalance.... this kind of counterbuff kill that game imo.
Edited by oooooooooooo on 6/29/2014 6:12 AM PDT
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06/28/2014 12:44 PMPosted by roarbot
06/28/2014 12:37 PMPosted by avilo
...

lol

have you ever played Terran ?

playing bio is grbage


I think you are garbage, bio is fine.

edit: Source=most likely play terran better than you

Actually terran is doing much worse than zergs and tosses atm. Just sayin.
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06/28/2014 11:56 AMPosted by Jakamakala
06/28/2014 11:55 AMPosted by SayYesToStim
wow that was really good article i like mines blast radius should be 1.5 if its to much you can buff zerg the old mines at radius of 1.75 was to much i think 1.5 will breathe life into sc for the terran players.


You are bad.

You retard?
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OP, well written and very informative. I can certainly agree with just about everything that you said.
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Community Manager
Posts: 424
Thanks for the suggestions, Winks. The level of analysis and overall tone of your post is appreciated.

The frequency of balance changes is something that we get a lot of feedback on. There are some players who want us to update balance more frequently, and some players who would like us to update less frequently. As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the player base needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.

While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups.

The thoughts in this thread, and similar threads, are all being read and will be passed along and discussed. This is something we do on a consistent basis, and more detailed posts like these help promote interesting discussion on our end.

Thanks again, and please continue to share your thoughts.
Edited by Psione on 6/29/2014 11:17 AM PDT
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06/29/2014 10:50 AMPosted by Psione
As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the playerbase needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.


I agree with this statement, but I wish you had adopted this approach before the widow mine nerf.

Overseer speed buff released August 26
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9792719181

HUGE widow mine nerf balance test map announced September 23 - 4 weeks later.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10038734466#1

06/29/2014 10:50 AMPosted by Psione
The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored.
Edited by JuliA on 6/29/2014 6:14 PM PDT
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Posts: 8,037
06/29/2014 10:54 AMPosted by JuliA
06/29/2014 10:50 AMPosted by Psione
As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the playerbase needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.


I agree with this statement, but I kinda wish you had adopted this approach before the widow mine nerf.


I am becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the balance team and HOTS as a product, due to the amount of double speak that seems to take place within the ranks of the dev team.

Whether it's about addressing the viability of certain strategies (namely that which were expressed as a priority goal in the beta), addressing stagnancy (sometimes with targeted nerfs that are supposed to be topical, yet have huge balance implications) or just plain flat out applying band aid solutions (this season's map pool in response to certain all-ins, instead of just addressing the timings and perhaps the maps at the same time).

There seems to be little or no direction. The developers seem afk, or completely complacent about the state of the game. And it shows. SC is becoming more limited, as is the playerbase and the prizepools.
Edited by nomufftotuff on 6/29/2014 11:02 AM PDT
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I'm not mad on Thor buffs, but the general idea an rest of the changes I can definitely give my seal of approval to.
+1
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06/29/2014 10:50 AMPosted by Psione

While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics.

With the state of Terran being what it is, the lack of an upcoming patch or at least a test map is very worrying.
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Posts: 66
06/29/2014 10:50 AMPosted by Psione
Thanks for the suggestions, Winks. The level of analysis and overall tone of your post is appreciated.

The frequency of balance changes is something that we get a lot of feedback on. There are some players who want us to update balance more frequently, and some players who would like us to update less frequently. As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the player base needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.

While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups.

The thoughts in this thread, and similar threads, are all being read and will be passed along and discussed. This is something we do on a consistent basis, and more detailed posts like these help promote interesting discussion on our end.

Thanks again, and please continue to share your thoughts.


Wait what? It's been 1+ year of Protoss domination, and there are no immediate plans for a balance Test map?

Why?
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