Topic 5 ways to beat ling/baneling/muta in masters
Edited by halby on 3/7/11 10:12 AM (PST)
I've worked out 2 great TvZ builds vs sling/bling/muta... I prefer the second but both work quite well... there are also 3 cheese builds that beat it... but i doubt u were asking for cheese...
All games are taken from the same sc2 youtube playlists:
here we go:
#1 constant suicidal marine aggression. you force the zerg to continually deal with small to medium sized MM groups, focusing on a strong fast expand and stim, to abuse the fact that replenishing banelings takes 50 seconds, while the next wave of marines only takes 30 seconds to show up.
(game demo of the build vs a 2100 diamond.
#2 fast-upgrades, turtle opening into mass marine late game... this one relies on the standard early 5marine push and engineering bay block to prevent the zerg from going too heavy on early econ, then a SUPER early CC off 0 gas and 2 rax, if roaches come of course u can just get a bunker and win, as your 5 marines will be at his base before the roaches can pop, so you'll see them. spam scvs to stay even in economy, and get fast double upgrades, at 12-14 minutes you'll be 2/2 and can basically stomp anything he has... at 0/0 lings destroy marines in small #s, and even in large #s if the marines are surrounded or spread out... at 2/2 marines beat lings of equal #s even if surrounded.
The more mutas your opponent makes vs this build, the more surely you will win, as fully upgraded marines, 6 marines (300$) if picked off by a cloud of 12 mutas (2400$) will actually kill 3 mutas before dying (600$) !! ie: even small groups of marines will do more than their weight worth of dmg vs even overwhelmingly large groups of mutas. mutas are completely shut down by this build, it is not cost effective to harass someone who can defend with almost no units. also, get the +2 armor to buildings upgrade and 1 turret on each mineral line, and 1 by your addons.
third person commentary:
first person vod masters league demo:
Probably 30 of the 35ish videos on the TvZ playlist use some variation of this build, it's my go-to build :)
#3 CHEESE: marine/scv allin
#4 CHEESE: go 2 starport behind a bunker, get 5 bainshees then pushout, if a zerg scouts the double starport a common response is to get 4-5 queens, but 5 bainshees can kill 5 queens even with a few transfuses... zerg is expecting 2-3 bainshees, surprise them with 5 :P
(game demo of the build , just a 3 minute fastforwarded speedcast to explain general concept
#5 CHEESE: thor+repair+hellions. push out at 8 minutes with 2 thors and a bunch of scvs/hellions.
(game demo of the build by a 2100 diamond, even though its a TvT, its the same build, just add on a second factory and hellions.
Edited by halby on 2/3/11 4:58 PM (PST)
edit: just wanted to move this post i had on page 6 up to page 1, as the odds of anyone who had the same question seeing it on page 6 are much slimmer :p
Haha, to answer your question: what builds do u do vs terran and toss, here are some examples taken from the playlist linked in the original post...
My most common build vs toss is 2rax FE into 4rax (3 reactors 1 tech lab) then try for a marine contain and tech to viking/thor/tank/ghost as appropriate... but usually i'll only get 3 or 4 non-marine/marauder units before the game is decided... its really just all about how well teh early contain goes. Vs terran i almost always go 1-1-1 (destiny cloud fist yo) often make 1 non cloaking bainshee for harassment, then go into tank/marines with a smattering of air... i rarely try to out-viking my opponent, cuz the more money he wastes on air superiority the more heavily you will win ground battles. there are plenty of other builds i've had success with, but these are the ones i've posted videos about anyway :P
^^I like how the people responding without anything constructive are the same posters that complain in other threads about the same thing.
He is trying to help. Even if the strats end up not being great they still bring diversity and give you something new to think about. Constatly Sending in Marines isn't actually a bad idea. Ive done this late game with 3/3 marines and came back after I was down 2 bases. You just attack everywhere at once time and make sure you split your marines well. Zerg uses way more resources than u
Edited by Abishai on 1/1/11 12:27 PM (PST)
<blockquote data-quote="17575199869"><div>Posted by Slyt</div>WAIT WAIT WAIT
ALL these builds are
kill the zerg before mutas come out
WE WANT A BUILD THAT BEATS MUTAS WHEN THEY COME OUT</blockquote>
<blockquote data-quote="17493210864"><div>Posted by BEST</div>Btw, the #2 thing, he didnt have any banelings at all...only a few and he used them on your thor or marauders for only the few he had and suicided his mutas
If he played well, you woulda lost most likel</blockquote>
Considering your respective leagues, I would at least try and follow the OP's advice. Even if it is true that if the other player had played better he would have lost (which by the way is almost always true) the other player was a Diamond, so he probably plays much, much better than the average opponent you would face. So it should work for you.
He's got the right idea though.
I mean when it comes to fighting Zerg you have no choice but to constantly attack which ends up trading armies and the most effective at that are marines.
If you try putting in Marauders or Thors they'll fall easily to blings/lings if there are no marines around.
If your good, while you've been constantly attacking him you've been expanding and teching up to Thors/tanks, etc. for the big push.
#1 is certainly a way to try to prevent a critical mass of mutas... but #2 will utterly stomp any # of mutas :P
I agree that obviously by 15min+ any build u pick will end up with all those units, the questions that lead up to that point, however are what's important:
6:00-7:00 survive a roach all-in or a baneling-all-in
5:00-10:00 put on enough pressure that the zerg can't get away with defending via skeleton crew
10:00-15:00 try to deny his 3rd, get your 3rd, trade armies as much as possible so he can't get his T3 up and running.
15:01+: what he said
Ling/Bling/Muta with really good creep spread, is designed to allow the zerg to take multiple far apart expos and defend them with good mobility... it is designed to allow him to get ahead of u in the drone game because nothing terran has early is both mobile and strong enough to prevent his third... it relies upon the simple fact that on-creep no moving(un-sieged) terran force that gets surrounded, can beat an == sized ling/baneling attack.
I dont get this part.
Lets say there are 2/2 upgraded zergling and 2/2 upgraded marines.
Shouldnt their upgrades cancel each other, leaving a 0/0 upgrade situation?