StarCraft® II

[G] Comprehensive Starcraft II Ladder Guide

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MVP - Technical Support
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The Bonus Pool is a decay system and nothing more. It's not used in any calculations nor does it factor into promotion eligibility.


Oh I must have misunderstood you. Could you clarify this

Another factor could be that by removing displayed losses, they downplay the impact of losses. The bonus pool already does well to offset the effect of losses because you can typically win double what you lose on average, so maybe this is just a step further in that direction. On average, in order to remain above 0 points, your win ratio has to be higher than 33%. Considering most players will hover around 50%, maybe this is intended to show players that all they need to do to increase their position in their division is play more games.




As far as Bronze is concerned, we already see that in SC2Ranks parses: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/us/1/all As of right now, Bronze has 46.5% of all accounts. Back in Patch 1.0.3, it was 38.9%. Patch 1.1, 40.4%. 1.1.2, 43.4%.


So according to that the total player base is
1.0% (7,472) 7.3% (53,088) 12.7% (92,732) 16.2% (118,014) 17.8% (129,569) 45.0% (328,639)

And the active player base should look something like this right? Is there a way to see on SC2ranks the actual active percentages?
2% 18% 20% 20% 20% 20%

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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 2,267
That statement was in reference to the patch 1.3 change that will remove displayed losses for players below Master league. The effect the bonus pool has is that it increases your points but not your MMR, nor does it help to decide how many points you earn or lose per match (it only doubles your winnings). Since all you have to do to improve your rank within your division is earn more points, and because the majority of everyone's points will come from bonus pool, that means all you have to do is play and win more games. That may be the targeted effect of removing the losses display -- to emphasize that losses aren't a big deal because your wins will generally earn you more points than your losses will cost you.

In order to gauge what exactly constitutes an "active player" we need to look at individual players' remaining bonus pools. SC2Ranks can't actually do that, instead it just looks at entire divisions so we can't get bonus pool data. If we were able to determine what the activity threshold is and how much bonus pool these players are spending, we might start seeing populations more in line with what Blizzard has said.
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Posts: 111
Question on the Zero Points Bug:


If our MMR is constantly moving, as games are played, based on each players MMR, and we know that the MMR of both players is "Bugged" (isn't it safe to assume that the system matches players based on MMR, so "BUGGED" MMR players should be playing each other?), how can the system be using two "BUGGED" numbers in an equation to come up with a final (NOT BUGGED) number??


Basically, if you have bugged MMR, wont playing games just make it worse?


EDIT: Even if only one player has Bugged MMR, wont this still skew the ongoing MMR??
Edited by PenguinKillr on 3/14/2011 5:34 AM PDT
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Posts: 3,946
The MMR is not bugged, I think nothing is bugged, we call it bug just because it's unintended, but the system is working just as design.

I think they will have to change the design to "fix" it, like creating a bronze tier that is ridiculosly low or a new copper league just for these guys.
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Posts: 111
With all due respect SDream, I think you

1. Do not understand the problem

and

2. did not answer my question.


03/14/2011 8:46 AMPosted by SDream
The MMR is not bugged, I think nothing is bugged, we call it bug just because it's unintended, but the system is working just as design.


Something is happening that is "Unintended" but is at the same time "working just as design".... Is it me, or is that a serious contradiction?

03/14/2011 8:46 AMPosted by SDream
I think they will have to change the design to "fix" it, like creating a bronze tier that is ridiculosly low or a new copper league just for these guys.


If it's working as designed, what is there to "fix"??
Edited by PenguinKillr on 3/14/2011 11:12 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,207

With all due respect SDream, I think you

1. Do not understand the problem

and

2. did not answer my question.


The MMR is not bugged, I think nothing is bugged, we call it bug just because it's unintended, but the system is working just as design.


Something is happening that is "Unintended" but is at the same time "working just as design".... Is it me, or is that a serious contradiction?

I think they will have to change the design to "fix" it, like creating a bronze tier that is ridiculosly low or a new copper league just for these guys.


If it's working as designed, what is there to "fix"??
The only thing that needs fixing is the egos of really really bad players. They are stuck at 0 points on the ladder because their true ranking would be negative, but that's apparently too cruel for blizzard to implement. They'll probably end up fixing it by using a different curve for the low end of the ladder, such that it calculates the challenge rating for point assignment from 0, in the event the opponent's MMR is below zero. Matchmaking and MMR would be unaffected, but these players could get some ego food in the form of hundred or so points, before the low opponent rating starts skewing the amount of points they get from wins/losses again.
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Posts: 111
03/14/2011 12:07 PMPosted by SoulWager
The only thing that needs fixing is the egos of really really bad players. They are stuck at 0 points on the ladder because their true ranking would be negative, but that's apparently too cruel for blizzard to implement. They'll probably end up fixing it by using a different curve for the low end of the ladder, such that it calculates the challenge rating for point assignment from 0, in the event the opponent's MMR is below zero. Matchmaking and MMR would be unaffected, but these players could get some ego food in the form of hundred or so points, before the low opponent rating starts skewing the amount of points they get from wins/losses again.


I'd rather the system tell me how much I suck, not some elitist Douche on the forum... thanks though.

Edit: Looks Like I called the wrong one of us a douche... sorry SDream.
Edited by PenguinKillr on 3/14/2011 2:13 PM PDT
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 2,267
03/14/2011 12:21 PMPosted by PenguinKillr
The only thing that needs fixing is the egos of really really bad players. They are stuck at 0 points on the ladder because their true ranking would be negative, but that's apparently too cruel for blizzard to implement. They'll probably end up fixing it by using a different curve for the low end of the ladder, such that it calculates the challenge rating for point assignment from 0, in the event the opponent's MMR is below zero. Matchmaking and MMR would be unaffected, but these players could get some ego food in the form of hundred or so points, before the low opponent rating starts skewing the amount of points they get from wins/losses again.


I'd rather the system tell me how much I suck, not some elitist Douche on the forum... thanks though.


SDream is right, in fact he knows the system as well as I do. MMR is not "bugged", and the points awarded to Bronze Zero players is actually acting according to design (MMR is below the point floor, means you are always favored, means you earn points according to being favored). However, Blizzard doesn't like that behavior because it's counterintuitive and confusing, not to mention frustrating for the lowest-level players having points earned from the last 10 straight wins wiped due to a single loss. So, they've classified it as a bug and scheduled it to be fixed with patch 1.3.

As far as MMR itself is concerned, there's no bug there. You are still gaining and losing appropriate levels of MMR with each game. Some players are just that far below the point floor and they have to make it up with a lot of wins. There are some players who earn zero points for a win, and those players are extremely far below the point floor. Players who earn 2, 4, 6 points are still pretty far below the point floor. Earning 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 means you're pretty close, and 24 (12+12 bonus) is the break-even point.
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Posts: 111
I sure am glad I didn't call SDream an Elitist Douche!!!


My concern was that my MMR was also calculating as if I was always favored, like the points do.

I understand how the points thing works, and I have seen my points awarded go from zero to currently 10-18 (including bonus), and usually only lose the same 10-18.

Thanks ExcaliburZ and SDream.
Edited by PenguinKillr on 3/14/2011 2:45 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,207
The only thing that needs fixing is the egos of really really bad players. They are stuck at 0 points on the ladder because their true ranking would be negative, but that's apparently too cruel for blizzard to implement. They'll probably end up fixing it by using a different curve for the low end of the ladder, such that it calculates the challenge rating for point assignment from 0, in the event the opponent's MMR is below zero. Matchmaking and MMR would be unaffected, but these players could get some ego food in the form of hundred or so points, before the low opponent rating starts skewing the amount of points they get from wins/losses again.


I'd rather the system tell me how much I suck, not some elitist Douche on the forum... thanks though.

Edit: Looks Like I called the wrong one of us a douche... sorry SDream.
An elitist douche? I guess I can work with that. I'm not going to apologize for my bluntness, it was the best way to get across the point of why blizzard doesn't allow point totals to go below zero. I never said it was what I would have done. I don't think points even matter until after you use up all the bonus pool, especially in lower leagues, where you can see huge skill shifts in small amounts of time.
Edited by SoulWager on 3/14/2011 3:04 PM PDT
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Posts: 13
thankyou so much this sheds some light on the whole league ladders ranking system you really did your homework on this so goodjob and thank you dude
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Posts: 305
this was helpful o.o
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Posts: 2
Here's my questions:
1) Why doesn't Blizzard show us our MMR?
2) Why is there a points system at all, instead of just the MMR?
3) How exactly are points earned per match calculated? I read the OP but unfortunately it's still not entirely clear to me. I understand the Bonus Pool bonus, but not how the base points per match is calculated based upon relative MMRs and whatever else.
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Posts: 646
This is awesome, I wish I could know what my MMR was though, no way to tell in diamond any more
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Posts: 19
really helpful in understanding the ladder system thanks.
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Posts: 14
Okay. i seriously have read alot of these posts and threads and stuff and I have probably overlooked it somewhere but i still would appreciate some clarification.
Do you have to be ranked in top 10 in each: 1v1 2v2 3v3..etc to finally move from bronze to silver?
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 2,267
Okay. i seriously have read alot of these posts and threads and stuff and I have probably overlooked it somewhere but i still would appreciate some clarification.
Do you have to be ranked in top 10 in each: 1v1 2v2 3v3..etc to finally move from bronze to silver?


No, your points and your rank have nothing to do with it. The moving average of your hidden MMR dictates everything about promotion.
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 2,267
Added an image near the top that better illustrates how points are determined for a game.
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Posts: 11
This post answered a lot of questions for me. Thanks for taking the time to put it together!
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Posts: 151
So I have a question about how points match up with MMR. I read the OP but I don't feel like I fully understand it. Lets take a look at my 1v1 division for example:

http://sc2ranks.com/div/79945/division-grizzly-alamo

I'm currently at rank 15 with 37W-22L (~62.5% ratio). All of the guys above me have worse ratios. Most of them have played many more games so far this season than I have. If MMR is supposed to be closely matched with points, does that mean that everyone above me probably has a higher MMR than I do? Or am I more likely to have a higher MMR than they because I've won a greater percentage of my games; I just haven't been able to play as many games as these guys have and rack up a lot of points.


Thanks for putting this guide together. Its a huge help.

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