StarCraft® II

[Marine Arena] Official Thread and Changelog

Posts: 1,262
as for the marine shop, you could set it up so that it isn't triggered by when a marine enters or leaves the region, but instead it would just simpy check every 5 seconds if there is a marine in the region, if there are multiple marines in the region by different players it would count the marines of each player and give whoever has the most marines in there control.

Red has 3 marines in the center, but blue has 5 marines in the center, red was there first and had it last when the trigger checked because blue had just entered right after red had gained control, 5 seconds after red gains control the shop would be given to blue because the trigger checked and decided that blue has more marines.

depending on the game lagging or not the time could be increased or reduced respectively, adding time would reduce the lag, if it even helps reduce it in the first place that is.

the even would be something like "every 5 seconds of real time" or something similar to that, with no conditions, but there would be the "if then/else" actions, probably a lot of them too
Edited by Fuglypump on 8/8/2010 8:02 PM PDT
Posts: 1,262
just get a marine to walk up to it, it is supposed to give you control of it if you approach it, it's very buggy so just keep trying.
Posts: 1,164
Im going to just add an if then else to the marine shop trigger that gives back control whenever there are exactly 0 player controlled marines nearby. Right now its set to give back control whenever a marine leaves its distance.

Having it check every 5 seconds can generate some lag from constant triggers checking and failing whenever there are no marines nearby. Also I want it to instantly give control, not have to wait 5 seconds for it to check.

Stalkers really arent overpowered, I have no trouble at all with stalkers, you need to manage your troops well, buy any merc and use them to shield your marines or vise versa. I actually like it when people get stalker, especially stalker lancer, because thats alot of bounty they're giving me for the little bounty they're getting from me.
Posts: 35
Stalkers are definantly awesome though i love them. They are squishy after while when upgrades start popping out but then i jsut upgrade health and defense and they now last onger. oh and i power up their initial attack to like 15 before i do defense. um lets see oh Is a lancer truly better then a normal stalker? teh thing says it lowers their over all attack but increases teh speed and lowers teh armor bonus as well. So i figured a normal is the best bet unless my opponent uses super marines.

Speking of marines whenever i try to tech them i get steam rolled by everything. what can i do for teh normal tech build fo marines. usually i start with stims tehn go to shield ones or twice then i buff the attack something fierce. after a while though they just get owned by everything unless i keep a huge supply in reserves.
Posts: 27
Hey Crayon I'm not sure if you saw the small detail in my wall of text, but are marauders intended to have splash? Not that I'm complaining about it since it helps them to keep on par with stalkers, but I just wanted to confirm that it is intended because I don't ever remember that during the beta. Either that or I just never noticed.

Edit: Didn't want to double post so I'll add on to this one. Just got out of a fairly long game on fast mode (500 minerals, double bounty, no sudden death) and I'm actually starting to think vikings may possibly be too strong though I'll have to confirm this with more games that go into end game. Not only are they THE hard counter to void rays and mutalisks (and when I mean hard counter, I mean void rays and mutalisks have absoloutely NO chance vs vikings). Things weren't looking so good for my team because my partner had just left and I barely lived after two infested saviors while I had a starport on fire and dying fast (which i saved with a support tower). At this point it was 1v2, one with void rays and the other with marauders, one with fairly upgraded marines (however with no range or attack speed).

Vikings have gotten me out of a hairy situation before, but none like this one. I managed to completely neutralize the fact that he had void rays with about a squad of 10 vikings I kept in the air at all times and converted the rest into ground so they could act as a meat shield for my super marines. I managed to hold off both player until I amassed enough to go on the offensive and won the game, however I was somewhat surprised that this was even possible and felt a little bad for the other team because of the massive advantage they had.

It led me to think that Vikings might be too good anti air and at the same time be too effective at handling ground as well. Their base life is 450, which is obviously being a t3 merc is a hefty amount of life, meaning they can soak up immense an amount of punishment while dishing a decent amount of damage to ground to both light units and armored units (marines and pretty much every other merc). But at the same time their AA capabilities are so good that they can turn an army of about 50 mutalisks/void rays into rubble within a few seconds.

My suggestion would be to either lower the HP of vikings from 450 to about 375 or 350 base health or to increase the cost of the merc from 1900 to probably 2500+. In my opinion it is a bit unfair for one merc to counter another in such an outright manner because mutalisks and void rays cannot compete. For T1 and T2 mercs, the discrepancy in strength isn't nearly as huge as it is for T3 mercs.

Now I may be speaking from a fairly skewed point of view of my experiences over 2 tight games in which I managed to hold off 2 players with both ground and air mercs and win the game with just vikings and my own marines.

In situations like these, from an objective point of view, it would have been much easier if they had just disabled marine and merc spawning now that I think about it and I would have been finished. Of course this ability is quite underused in my opinion because the game is still new and they haven't explored all the aspects of the map yet, however that applies to just about any situation, regardless of what kind of merc or how upgraded your marines are.

I would like the opinion of other players to see if what I'm seeing is just the other players being bad or if vikings need some adjustment
Edited by Tactim on 8/8/2010 10:32 PM PDT
Posts: 25
It seems that massive heroes are sort of a joke. Considering that they all cost 1000+ which means that they are meant to be used in mid to late game. They problem with that is that by mid to late game a large hero like the Colossus with only 1200 shields 1200 health is focus fired and Pwned way to easily. Even with proper micro and extended thermal lances, sat-scans and blink is so prevalent that the colossus so easily Pwned it barely even has a chance to make any money at all. Make T2 Heroes actually be heroes and not just "more health and damage than normal massive units".

Also the Jim Raynor hero from "the belly of the beast" would make the most awesomest hero evar! (and so would all the other heroes from that mission). Precision Sniping like 300 marines would be super awesome! :D
Posts: 1,164
Im not adding in campaign heroes yet, last time I tried to add the campaign dependency, it reset almost everything. I dont really want to redo the whole data editor over again just to add in the campaign heroes. I'm trying to find an alternative however, like creating my own custom mod with the specific campaign elements I want.

@Tactim

No one has every really gone vikings yet, so they've actually never had the chance to be properly balanced. Before the x.5 merc upgrades, all T3 mercs had roughly 200 less HP, so back then vikings werent too great. I suppose with their now 450 base health they might be too overpowered as ground units in assault mode. I meant for them to be decent ground units and very effective anti air units, making them only worth getting when other air is present.

I'm going to adjust their HP and maybe their weapon range for next update, 300 HP seems fair for them, and maybe 5 range would be good too, making you have to get close to do anything damaging.
Posts: 676
Me and my buddy play this and Nexus Wars pretty much exclusively. On average I'd say we play about 10 games per day, winning about 80% of the time with a Beetle/Stalker combo. These are our observations:

- In fastest mode, Stalkers are so overpowered that we both just get stalkers and win the game every time.
- Marine upgrades are fine, range pretty much rules all. If you can stay alive long enough to get full range and weapon speed upgrades AND no one else gets the range, you will dominate.
- Beetles are pretty sick, especially with the regen. A tactic I like to use is burrow underneath an army, pop up for about 4 seconds then go back down and regen health super fast. Up, down, up down, repeat until there's no one left.
- The middle building with the upgrades can be very frustrating. I still, after hundreds of games, don't understand how to control it except to move a bunch of marines to cover the entire area (and even that doesn't always work).
- Everyone seems to want to go void rays every game and when they do, we know we've won. It costs 2000 for the building yet upgraded marines waste them every time.
- Merc buildings and heroes should not be cheaper to rebuild. Because they are cheaper there's less incentive to protect them.
- Marines spawn every 3 seconds, mercs seem to spawn every 4? Merc spawn timer should be increased. IMO mercs should supplement your army, not replace it.
- The base defenses (bunkers, photon cannons, etc) aren't positioned optimally, which is why most times they are a waste of money.
- The sensor tower and it's upgrades are pretty cool.

Anyway, I could probably write an essay but I'm too busy actually playing it.

Stalkers do need nerfed btw. I know you're hesitant to nerf them but the truth is they're too strong. Maybe they should just cost 1000 minerals.


Posts: 34
How the middle marine forge works:

If a marine (only a marine) enters within a certain distance, and the forge is currently unowned, control is given to the marine owner.

If a mariner leaves a slightly smaller distance, control is reverted to neutral.

Also, every minute, control is reverted to neutral. Presumably to fix up any issues with triggers not firing, which would allow the player to control it for the whole game if they glitched it.

As I said before, if you send TWO marines near the forge, and ONE leaves, then control goes back to neutral. This is because it always goes back to neutral if it detects any marine leaving the magic radius, and it will do so until you send another marine into the radius. If you are sending a large amount of marines, chances are that this will happen just because marines are pushing each other around trying to get to their destination.

The 100% sure fire way to use it is to only send 1 marine right up next to the marine forge. Its still possible that the revert-to-neutral-every-minute thing will hit right when you are using it, so if that happens move your marine back a few inches then to the forge again.


My usual anti-stalker strategy (for non-750 mineral starts) is simply Marauders and Marines. You already have the early game lead because you go with cheaper marauders. You use the marauders to tank for marines with upgraded range. Stimpacks make your army output massively more damage then stalkers, although they aren't as durable for a long time.

The weakness of stalkers is that they are really large units, and their armor/health is split.

While they have range and damage, the fact that they are large units means that for every spot taken up by a stalker on one side, 4 marines or 2 marauders can fit in it. 4 marines or 2 marauders under stimpack do so much more damage then stalkers it isn't even funny. Since you have about 3 units firing to every 1 of his, and since you are on stimpack which makes your units fire about 3x faster then his, every damage upgrade you get is roughly 9x more powerful then his. Which is why I say that stalkers are only a problem early game, as soon as you get to the break point of marine range and about 3/3/3 marine rate of fire/damage/health, you start to totally obliterate stalkers by use of focus fire and the upgrade power. If its a very large battle with relatively open terrain, give your M/M group an order to move FORWARD into the stalker formation and then fire. The reason? Again, for every extra stalker firing because you moved forward, 4 more marines on your side are piling it on. Marines with rate of fire upgrades AND stimpacks AND some damage upgrades will make stalkers melt away, you just want to make sure as many are firing as possible since your marines have the numbers advantaged.

The other problem, health/shield split, means armor and shield upgrades are effectively useless for stalkers in any reasonable game. Why? They are split in half. Damage upgrades would be massively weaker if they only worked half the time and still cost the same amount, its the same story here. On the other hand, the enemy upgrading to stalker lancers actually makes your OWN armor upgrade MORE effective. Massive amount of weaker attacks is what armor is for. Of course, once they start getting lancer damage they take it back since they can get more damage then you can get armor, but rushing lancers without damage can hand you the advantage if you invested in armor.


- Everyone seems to want to go void rays every game and when they do, we know we've won. It costs 2000 for the building yet upgraded marines waste them every time.


Void rays aren't intended for fighting armies, they are intended to snipe buildings. 5/10 of them snipe your merc compound. 40 of them snipe your CC and its game over. I assume people who are going void rays, though, simply see that it costs the most and assume its the best overall. lulz.

That said, if you really want to screw over flying mercs, invest in the infestor. Plague will immobilize the entire group while your marines sit there shooting at them outside their range, with air units unable to shoot back. HILARIOUS.
Edited by Plague on 8/9/2010 6:56 AM PDT
Posts: 8
Being able to summon an entire army of merc marines inside the enemy base using a support tower is overpowered with high upgrades.
Posts: 139
@Plague
The issue is exactly that they are overpowered early game. When this happens they have ample time to, amongst all of the 6 different players, accumulate a very large amount of money. Using this, they can spent it however needed to counter anything that could ever counter stalkers.
Another issue that I just recently discovered is the comparative difficulty level. I usually go tech marines, but during my friends first time playing I instructed him to purchase stalkers and get stalker upgrades. That was it. I did this, and he wound up easily dominating the entire map. Tech marines, on the other hand, requires a certain amount of strategy and experience. You can't just buy and upgrade one thing. You need to space out your money to most efficiently..well..stand a chance against stalkers.

I remain by what I said before. I think it's necessary to reduce the effectiveness of stalker damage upgrades.
Posts: 34
@Plague
The issue is exactly that they are overpowered early game. When this happens they have ample time to, amongst all of the 6 different players, accumulate a very large amount of money. Using this, they can spent it however needed to counter anything that could ever counter stalkers.


I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of mineral farming stalkers do. A stalker is worth 10 minerals bounty. Using Zerglings (1 mineral each) and marines (2 minerals each), you will decisively own a stalker army of equal cost assuming you spend the 600 mineral difference between a stalker compound and a zerg compound on upgrading zerglings. You also have a larger early lead, since you had zerglings for 5 mins while he had nothing but marines. If that lead doesn't translate into an extra upgrade or two then shame on you for not pressing when you had the advantage.

My other favourite start is Marauders. Marauders + Marines share the stimpack upgrade, so as long as you move marauders infront of marines to tank damage, then stim, you will again certainly fair well against a Stalker army. You may not quite come out ahead, but you should have taken an upgrade advantage from the early advantage you had due to the cheaper mercs.

Either way, stalkers certainly won't be accumulating a large bounty advantage over you unless a player is feeding them. In that case, its up to you to flank and eliminate the stalkers yourself, or rush their base and kill their stalker compound while they are out of position.

Another issue that I just recently discovered is the comparative difficulty level. I usually go tech marines, but during my friends first time playing I instructed him to purchase stalkers and get stalker upgrades. That was it. I did this, and he wound up easily dominating the entire map. Tech marines, on the other hand, requires a certain amount of strategy and experience. You can't just buy and upgrade one thing. You need to space out your money to most efficiently..well..stand a chance against stalkers.


Did you really go just marines? If so, that was stupid. You NEED a merc early on, because tech marines are only good on their own with massive upgrades. At the very least you need an infestor with the plague upgrade, and that is pushing it.

Yes, stalkers are easy to A-move into enemies bases with and do quite a bit of damage.

I remain by what I said before. I think it's necessary to reduce the effectiveness of stalker damage upgrades.


I don't know what you mean by this. Upgrade-wise, stalkers are already behind the curve of stimmed marines, stimmed marauders, or zerglings. Stalker Lancers are significantly better, however by that point you should have teched marines at a level to at least be of comparable strength.
Edited by Plague on 8/9/2010 6:43 PM PDT
Posts: 15
I've seen stalkers being used by the winning team in every game.
Posts: 27
I used to think stalkers were quite overpowered as well, but there is always a way around them to gain the advantage. A lot of the newer and inexperienced players in this map often just attack move straight into another army and hoping for results. A lot of this map has to do with your position and how you engage the opposing army.

Generally if you're ranged vs ranged, you want to engage the opposing army where you can create a choke point and have them essentially limit the amount of people they can have fighting you at one time. This can often be done in the middle where the opponent is in the middle and you're firing from the uphill down to the middle or even on the sides of the middle where the passages are relatively narrow. From personal experience, you almost NEVER want to be in the middle unless you have sufficiently large forces because you'll be often surrounded and choked. You always want your opponent inside those passages while your army can surround that choke point where there is a much larger area for your army to occupy and still fight.

Aside from head on head fights, using your height advantage in the side paths in the trees has great payoffs as you can often lure the enemy army into coming into the side paths in the middle while your army demolishes them from the ledge above.

I would say positioning is about one of the most strategies to learn in marine arena along with UPGRADING MARINE RANGE FULLY. Right now it's excusable because the map is still new to a majority of players and have no idea what the marine shop in the middle can do, but that is the absolute top priority in addition to upgrading stim pack. I have seen too many people just dump so many upgrades into attack (10+) but are confused as to why my marines with only 5 upgrades are able to defeat them so easily. Combining the positioning strategy earlier with your range advantage, you can completely demolish their front line of marines before they even get to fire.

Another quick note on positioning, if you're attacking someone's base and you see another army coming to sandwich you in, move your army out of their way because you're just going to be demolished. Don't be afraid to lose units when doing this, because the alternative is to lose your entire army to being sandwiched. However as soon as the other army engages the person you were just fighting, you can just go back into the fight and sandwich that person and get tasty minerals.

Aside from combatting other marines, this ultimately puts your marines on par with stalkers as they now have the range needed to combat them. Someone earlier already noted how stalkers have huge collision size and marines and marauders can fill up more space per stalker, so that is the advantage that you have over an enemy with stalkers when you're facing head to head.

Basically what you should take from this is to fight only when the position is favorable to you, don't be afraid to move your army a lot, and upgrading marine range should be the first things you upgrade (unless someone decides to go all out on armor, you will have to compensate with attack so you don't just do 1 damage)
Posts: 251
FYI, you forgot to fix the extra marine spawning for player 2. <_<
Posts: 1,164
Alright I've done a few changes and am publishing it now.

Marine Shop/Center Beacon:
I've adjusted their triggers so now it only sets control back to neutral if there are no units within its 3 point radius. Every 15 seconds it checks if there are no units nearby to fix the problem when marines died while standing next to it.

Fastest Mode:
Set to 500 starting minerals.

Stalkers:
Set to 20 base damage.

Vikings:
Health, Damage, Armor, Range all reduced.

Spectre:
No longer crashes when you attempt to arm a nuke. The reason why it crashed was back when blizzard changed the nuke in phase 1 to phase 2, the old settings kept in the map, so there was a blank requirement for the arm magazine (nuke). Even though it was blank, the editor still thought something was there, so whenever you moused over the nuke it tried to read a requirement that didnt exist but was still set.

Theres a few other things that I did but they're pretty minor.

FYI, you forgot to fix the extra marine spawning for player 2. <_<

What do you mean? Is it the upgrade, or the trigger thats not spawning the extra marine?
The extra marine spawning is a global upgrade for all players for the command center, it doesnt just work for one player and not work for another, it either works for everyone or no one.
Edited by Crayon on 8/9/2010 8:41 PM PDT
Posts: 35
So if i want to do a marine tech build do I make marcs and then never upgrade? which is the best merc for that? i was thinking maruaders cause they can stim with marines then someone said roaches are good for defending marines later on. i also saw someone in a fastest game get hellions then teched marines while hellions gave them money.
Posts: 27
marauders work well with marine teching because of stim, roaches are good because they've got a lot of life, can burrow + move underground for surprise attacks and also own marines, and stalkers are all around a good merc though they give the most bounty to other people and are bulky units. Helllions mainly work if the opponent has lings or zealots as their merc.
Posts: 1,164
If you're doing teched marine, get something that can sheild your marines, I prefer roaches, unteched to beetle, keep them infront of your range teched marines.

You also should consider getting the appropriate counters if certain mercs are present.

Get marauders if there are alot of stalkers present.
Get Zealots if alot of marauders are present
Get Hellions if alot of zerglings/zealots/teched marines are present
Get Maraiders or vikings for air
Get Stalker for a well-rounded merc
Get Stalker Lancers for light units
Do not for the love of god get Void Rays and try to take out armies, mutalisks are the anti ground, rays are anti building.
Zergling/Cracklings are great early game in classic non-fast games.

Dont upgrade your marine armor if there are high mercs present, just do damage/speed/range/health.

Dont upgrade your mercs if you're doing teched marine, your mercs will gradually upgrade as you upgrade your marines.

Dont waste money on heroes, they're usually not worth it.

Early game you'll be behind but if you stick at it you should get out ahead unless someone else is doing teched marine.
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