Topic
Khaydarin Amulet Analysis (TL rethread)
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Edited by VeckrO on 3/11/11 3:26 AM (PST)
Sourced from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197571
There is a large amount of discussion that has been had, that is the original OP/thread. I ask for everyone concerned in repealing, and forwarding the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade to please get involved in discussion on Team Liquid as well as on Blizzard forums in the other thread. I also advise Blizzard to keep look at this thread if they so choose to gather important, constructive community feedback. The many pages of the thread have been extremely helpful in the concerns of why Khaydarin Amulet should not be removed. In defense, one of my many posts argues many valid points. "High Templars in Starcraft 2 are hardly ever going to be used if they cannot warp-in and Storm, atleast within a few seconds after being warped. High Templars are far from being the same as Ghosts and Infestors. They are a lot stronger, but lack self-defensive capabilities/mobility. High Templars role is not supposed to be tagging along in the back of your army, the risk of any nullification on all your templars far outweigh the benefits if there is no KA. The investment for HT goes beyond Ghost and Infestor tech, and they are much slower (~1.87spd), and have no defensive capabilities (vs. burrow and cloak). While we are researching storm, you can be getting cloak or burrow.... fair. (Cloak/Burrow are shared abilities, and also help your caster to nullify HTs - Z/T need to get their upgrades too, of course a HT with its upgrades > your caster with none) High Templars need to research their AoE, Ghosts and Infestors need to research their defensive abilities. Fair is fair. Ghosts/Infestors, being reinforced/streamed in like any Terran/Zerg unit is not as vulnerable as a Templar coming to reinforce (no KA, have to wait in a safe spot w/Templar). Ghosts can cloak, and do what San did: 1 by 1 let your Ghosts(or High Templar) go and nullify its counter part. Defensive/stealth abilities exist for Ghosts and Infestors BECAUSE you have to reinforce w/them from your production facility, and Ghosts/Infestors are a little weaker. But because of such, the potential to keep your Ghosts and Infestors safe far outweigh what a HT can do to remain safe while traveling. Instead of whining, I think Z/T need to ALWAYS get their caster upgrades should they choose to go for them, Protoss does and its a great investment. Leenock invested in burrow for Infestors during his games in GSL and they paid off greatly. What is not fair? We have to research Storm, and in turn, once we get the +25 energy, we can Storm right away. Terran can get moebius reactor, and by the time the Ghost can join the fight, he can be useful, same with Infestors. Zergs use Infestors to delay games all the time, and maybe if more Zergs used them often we'd see how Zergs can destroy MMM while being on the 'losing side'. Terran use Ghosts to delay Protoss advances all the time. THE GAME IS FAIR. Perspective is key. T1 units are not supposed to work out forever vs. Tech. Some other units have to be used, it's obvious thats the case and Terran just cannot get a grip that MMM isn't 100% viable 25+ mins... how is that not reasonable? If your opponent goes for Tech, you have to also, of an equal degree. Ghosts and Infestor tech =/= Templar Tech, you need a little more. As Protoss takes a risk/investment to get them up to begin with. (Gateway to T3 is quite a jump) If Toss can get their tech that costs so much gas, along with Protoss units in general that require the most gas, your opponent could have used the same, if not more gas to go a tech route or an economic mass lower tier route. Tier 1 units should be viable all game, but not without complications. These are the complications of going T1 all game, you still need tech to counter tech, especially if you are being outplayed. Everywhere you look, when concerned with KA there is a logic, reason, and fairness abound - there is nothing wrong with Storm, or the Amulet. Meta game is shifting, and players are losing their marbles." And mentioning a point from posts in said thread, Ravens also help to fill the gap that Ghosts lack, whether you get them or not - they help a lot in many situations. High Templar is T3, Ghosts are not, Raven is likely the closer comparison in raw strength to the High Templar. A Ghost IS a spellcaster, but it is specifically an antispellcaster. Ghosts and Infestors come with their general-use abilities and at 25 energy, High Templar require an upgrade for storm, and come with a situational ability that costs 50 energy. |
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I just... I just don't even think they care. This change is going to go through, in spite of everything. In spite of Jinro himself saying it goes too far, in spite of one biggest upsets in the community regarding a change in the combined history of the game from beta to present, in spite of taking away and giving nothing back to the ht in return to make up for it (such as... I don't know, give them more starting energy from the start, like 10-15 more, or coming with storm for free, range increase, anything at all to keep them theoretically viable, something, ANYTHING,) In spite of the efforts of the community, it's going to be straight up ignored, along with actual balance issues that we have been vocal about for months.
2 rax bunker against zerg, being the most obvious example, because it's undisputed. The GSL redesigned maps to nerf it. It's so blatant, so obvious, so completely undisputed, and yet, nothing. Nothing. Instead they're nerfing high templar to a point where they can longer ever be used ever no matter what, it will never be worth the risk ever again to construct a templar archives, it will never be viable to build anything else than a collosus based army. |
Does Blizz really believe limiting EMP to removing "only" 100 energy makes HTs without Khaydarin viable? As though you're really going to have HTs just standing around able to charge to 250 energy or something. Unlike ghosts or infestors or even sentries, HTs are so slow and fragile they have almost no chance of surviving long enough to get 175+ energy. well i think the point was to make it so if you use them it has to be preplanned ahead of time, not just warp in and go whenever you need it. |
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Disliked, you're oh so detailed analysis left many things out. You forget that HTs instantly become free powerful archons after they drop their devastating storms. You didn't mention that storm does 88 Dmg while fungal does a mere 36. OH NOES I CAN'T MOVE!! o wait doesn't matter every unit that T and P has except for zealot has range. You didn't mention that HTs are the cheapest casters of them all. You don't mention that drops on an empty base or counter attacks with mutas are essentially worthless even if the Protoss army is far far away. A few cannons to stall time and a few warp in templars should not protect a third forever. Protoss players rage about how Terran sticks to bio all the time, but realistically, they have little other options. Hellions beats zealots, and that's around it. Thors are damaging, but generally lose to corruptors and gateway. Tanks are strong, but blink and charge quickly covers the distance between them, not to mention Protoss units are beefy enough to charge a full tank line. If mech play IS possible vs Protoss, it really is secondary to bio atm.
Remove amulet, Blizzard, and don't look back. |
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Edited by Dreadwolf on 3/11/11 12:13 PM (PST)
Yeah if they are going to make sLow Emplars a unit that you drag around with your army, well make it move at the same speed of a ghost or infestors. Not that anyone would spend so much money and time to tech to HT without KA. Its not just worth the investement anymore. HT / Storm without KA should be available at the twilight council
Barack ...... 150 / 0 ....... Gateway .............. 150 / 0 tech lab ...... 50 / 25 ..... Cyber Core .......... 150 / 0 Ghost acc... 150 / 50 ..... Twilight council .... 150 / 100 Mobius ...... 150 /150 ..... Storm research .... 200 / 200. ................ 500/ 225 .................................. 650 / 300 Yeah that seems fair. |
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Edited by Trogdor on 3/11/11 12:17 PM (PST)
It does 80 over 4 seconds- you are unlikely to ever take all 80 damage if you are able to micro
yes, but their re-usability is the lowest (1 storm, gotta morph 'em into archons now) Thors are damaging, but generally lose to corruptors and gateway Thors are not hit by air-to-air attacks unlike colossi and thors with bio support eats gateway units for breakfast
They are nothing more than meat shields. Sure they have a ton of shields but only a range of 2 and almost no splash. |
They die prety damn fast. |
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In so many aspects of your argument you assume that just because the game is played in a certain way now means that that's how the game is supposed to be played. Here's an example:
"High Templars role is not supposed to be tagging along in the back of your army" Why? Have you ever tried having them move with your army? I see it done plenty. Realize that Starcraft is a very complex game, and the popular strategies evolve over time. Just because Templars are being used in a certain way now doesn't mean Protoss players can't find a way to adapt to the nerf and find an effective use for the HT. |
In so many aspects of your argument you assume that just because the game is played in a certain way now means that that's how the game is supposed to be played. Here's an example: This is not what i said at all, im not saying they are not suposed to tag long, im saying blizzard want us to walk our templar on the map instead of warping in + storm, make them able to follow the army. Templar are !*!%ing slow. sLow Emplar. They also never survive lost battle/skirmish, we cant pull em back to fight an other day, they always die. Thats one of the reason why warp + storm was logical. If you make the templar function like other races caster, then do it all the way. Or maybe ghost and infestor need to be slower. Now why im a saying templar should be like the other caster.. i dont, i think templar with KA are just fine, but you guys keep saying that you cant warp ghost and emp, so YOU are saying that templar should be like ghost.. Well ok but dont do it halfway and then stop. |
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You know... Warp Prisms can move pretty fast... I'm pretty sure you can even put units inside of them to move said units around quickly.
I know there will be crying about another expensive tech tree to go down and infeasibility of that, but as a Zerg player, I don't care about Protoss complaining about long, expensive tech paths... Zerg has Ultralisk and Broodlords, both only occasionally good things to tech to, at least Templar and Robo/Colossus tech paths are rewarding. |
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Edited by picKLes on 3/11/11 2:15 PM (PST)
Most people may not like this change, but truthfully most people don’t see the same picture that Blizzard sees. We’re looking at puzzle piece in a puzzle that has 1000 pieces and are trying to describe what the picture looks like. We can’t do it. If they are removing it my guess is, they see something we don’t and there is good reason for it. If in the end it is a bad decision, then Blizzard will “re-change” it.
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You know... Warp Prisms can move pretty fast... I'm pretty sure you can even put units inside of them to move said units around quickly. *caugh caugh* carriers. also broodlords are amazing units i would trade my carriers for them. |
