StarCraft® II

Old school LotR map

Given that this is in 3d and most people have larger monitors than they did back then, I think the different models stand out pretty significantly. Picking out hero's was such a big deal, at least in Pre, and I'd like to preserve that element as much as possible.

Edit: Finally got corsairs with DWeb and Finrod remade. Not as close to the original as I'd like to get, but functional for now.

Dark swarm is remade as well, now just gotta figure out Ensnare, Plague and what model to use for Dark Vision (and Consume)
Edited by Diablito on 8/9/2010 7:40 AM PDT
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I've completed the terrain. It's not nearly as accurate as I wanted, and two bases have been kind of squished because I couldn't really determine what the scale would be like when I was building it due to the 3D terrain. I'll worry about fixing it or finding someone to clean it up later.

Currently working on unit design and abilities, and base design. Wondering what I'll replace the reaver heroes with.
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(WC)! It's been awhile since I saw that tag.

I remember playing against Ecthelion(WC) pretty often back in the day, but that's one of the few opponent names that I recall. I went by Draugluin for a lot of my LotR days, in case anyone remembers me.

It's weird to think about Pre without an Arbiter's Statis Shield to counter hero pushes. And that whole timing of Recall to get your hero out of a Stasis Field while your opponent surrounded your hero with his.


And oh man, I remember the good old days of sending Glaurung into Falas' island to take out the first Castle and the Templar Archives so that the player was limited in his +upgrades (then Cirdan wouldn't do absurd damage).
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Right now I'm using the sentry as the unit model, making it really slow and trying to alter the Brood Lord attack a little and apply it to the sentry unit.
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@Computerz

Right now I'm using Vortex in place of stasis field, but once the map is done *shrug* we'll see.
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Yeah, unfortunately I've fallen out of contact with most of the rest of the clan in the timespan between Brood War and SC2. I remember playing with you some back in the days, Draugluin. (Assuming it wasn't a different Draugluin.)

Diablito,
That's an excellent idea. I hadn't considered using the brood lord attack. However, what I might experiment with doing is using the immortal attack animation and slapping it on a different unit, and slowing down the travel time of the projectile. (And removing the ability to hit air units.)
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Kalreborn,

I'm trying to alter the brood lord attack just because I hope I can find a way to recreate the pathing of the scarab (at least so that it travels over ground and doesn't jump cliffs and whatnot. This is an annoyingly intricate attack though, its taking some time :(

And of course I'll have to find an appropriate looking model for the missile and then the explosion effect, but blah.
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Diablito,
I haven't decided if I actually want to duplicate the attack or not. While I want the map to feel classic, SC mapmakers have always worked with what was available. I never thought, "Hey, this hero would totally shoot a bomb out of its mouth!" Although it is pretty damn cool.

I don't know, I'm still deciding what to do with what were the reaver heroes (should they even have splash damage, should they be melée or ranged, et cetera).
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Oh man I miss the LotR days of SC. I was in the NERV/SSDF clan for a good amount of time which was basically a big LotR clan. It'd be awesome to replay some of those maps but at the same time I'm not too sure how receptive all the new players would be in the whole DotA / tower defense age we are now in. If you don't have heroes in a map that take out hundreds of units you instantly lose a lot of players now.

There was also a bit of a steep learning curve with people that were good vs new players. One of the original had the ops you could kill people within the first 1m if they didn't know what they were doing. This is another downfall where people now seem less willing to learn a map. They want to jump in and start killing a lot of !@!# immediately.
Edited by Karma on 8/9/2010 12:10 PM PDT
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Cyric,

I think I'll take your advice and get creative with the map (or at least the heroes, which are an intricate part of an LotR map). Either way, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate, and regardless of how much the map feels like a classic or is filled with fresh ideas, I want the map to be fun. I will be doing a series of playtests that will help shape how the map will turn out in its completed form, and hopefully with lots of feedback from other players.

As a side note, I am irritated by the inability to show the names that each player slot represents in the lobby, and also that the host is always player 1. Hopefully this will get ironed out, or I might come up with a work-around (I have one in mind that I haven't experimented with yet).

Karma,
I used to play against some people in NERV. :)

I'm not concerned with what the Tower D (which I do enjoy, by the way), DotA, Evolves, Madness, or other fans think. This is an LotR map for fans of the big war strategy maps. This is a map for me and for you, for everyone else in this thread, and for everyone else in the custom maps forum that I hear saying, "We want an LotR-style map like what we used to play ages ago."

I expect the learning curve to be steep. I expect there will be opping from the really skilled players which may be difficult to counter (but not impossible!). Although TRoP isn't made for opening-game ops anyway. I hope this map is difficult to win all-around, and requires strategy and coordination. And I hope you all whoop my sorry butt, because my micro skills are nothing like they used to be!
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I'm going to get creative when I make another map, but c'mon, I'm remaking Pre here :) I do plan on eventually making a War of the Ring or Arnor/Lich King based map in which I'll get creative with what SC2 can be. It's just that Pre is already so defined in my head, don't wanna mess with it too much.

I second your opinion on what people think and the learning curve.

As far as player selection, ya I miss headings in lobbies too.
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I'd love to see the LotRish community return. It was definitely my favourite gaming experience. Since we have to work within the confines of b.net 0.5, we should set up a community forum. We could use it to form clans, make and discuss maps, find beta testers, etc. If anyone knows of one out there already or could set one up and start directing the old school lotr players there, I think we could kick start the community again.

I've considered remaking my War of Power map, but since we don't have access to a lot of sc1 units I would probably update it instead. The convert worked terribly though and the editor looks like a pain to use, so we’ll see.

I think it's important that we don't alter unit mechanics too much, otherwise we'll end up with lotrish maps like those in wc3, which I never saw a good one of. A stalker hero should be able to optionally blink, but its range, attack speed, movement speed, etc. shouldn't change. LotRish is like chess in a way, if the way a knight can move changes from game to game, it loses the strategy component.

Bonus damage types should likely remain the same as well, with only the amount of damage changing.

The main exception to this would be bringing back Arbs, corsairs, and defilers in some form, because they are vital to the gameplay.

The limits placed on us in sc1 forced us to be creative, and set a standard that flowed from game to game that let us pick up new maps. The limits are gone, so I think we need to impose some standards on ourselves in order for a map to be "certified lotrish".

Also, random hero is an insult to well made maps.
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I'd love to see the LotRish community return. It was definitely my favourite gaming experience. Since we have to work within the confines of b.net 0.5, we should set up a community forum.

I think that is an excellent idea. However, I will leave such things to more social people than myself to organize.

I've considered remaking my War of Power map, but since we don't have access to a lot of sc1 units I would probably update it instead. The convert worked terribly though and the editor looks like a pain to use, so we’ll see.

I had the same problem with TRoP, which necessitated completely designing the terrain from scratch, which is what has taken most of the time up to this point. Unfortunately, I've never been good with terrain, nor did I design the terrain originally.

I think it's important that we don't alter unit mechanics too much, otherwise we'll end up with lotrish maps like those in wc3, which I never saw a good one of.

Just from the tests I've run, even with some modified heroes here and there, this feels much more like the LotR maps in SC1 than anything in WC3 ever felt, in my opinion. There were many problems with trying to place an LotR map in WC3, not the least of which was how cartoony the visuals were (I blame World of WarCraft for the downfall of WarCraft).

Bonus damage types should likely remain the same as well, with only the amount of damage changing.

I've removed them, and will worry about that after I get some playtests going with live players.

The main exception to this would be bringing back Arbs, corsairs, and defilers in some form, because they are vital to the gameplay.

Pretty sure everyone can agree with this. ;)

I'm not sure if anyone is working on an LotR map right now besides myself and Diablito. Diablito is trying to remain as close to the classic Pre-LotR as possible, which makes sense since he is attempting to remake Melkor{WC}'s map that everyone loved so much. (Although I seem to recall Melkor enjoying Post-LotR more.) In comparison, I'm re-envisioning my partner's work and my own work for SC2, rather than attempting to do a perfect crossover. However, to start with I am keeping most of the mechanics the same, as well as stats. We'll see how it works, and it'll be tweaked as necessary until it is a fun and enjoyable experience for the LotR community.
Edited by Kalreborn on 8/10/2010 9:14 AM PDT
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I had the same problem with TRoP, which necessitated completely designing the terrain from scratch, which is what has taken most of the time up to this point. Unfortunately, I've never been good with terrain, nor did I design the terrain originally.


Would it be mean for me to say how happy I am that Pre converted really well?

I think it's important that we don't alter unit mechanics too much, otherwise we'll end up with lotrish maps like those in wc3, which I never saw a good one of.

Just from the tests I've run, even with some modified heroes here and there, this feels much more like the LotR maps in SC1 than anything in WC3 ever felt, in my opinion. There were many problems with trying to place an LotR map in WC3, not the least of which was how cartoony the visuals were (I blame World of WarCraft for the downfall of WarCraft).


The game as a whole really does just feel like SC1 with better graphics and some fancy stuff here and there, which is a good thing. But I do agree at trying to stay as close to existing units as possible. I want people who played the campaign or even play melee at least understand unit mechanics, even if they get lost in the other stuff.


The main exception to this would be bringing back Arbs, corsairs, and defilers in some form, because they are vital to the gameplay.

Pretty sure everyone can agree with this. ;)
[/quote

Motherships are a poor substitution, but thats what I'm using for arbs. They already have recall and a Stasis like effect, so I just tweaked Recall a little bit and am deciding what I wanna do with Vortex. Corsairs I've kinda brought back using the Phoenix model, attack isnt nearly as cool as Neutron flare but it seems to work pretty well. I have DWeb using the psi storm model (I couldn't find anything else more appropriate) and Dark Swarm and Ensnare are back (don't think I'll bring back plague and just give Ensnare to dark visions)

[quote] I'm not sure if anyone is working on an LotR map right now besides myself and Diablito. Diablito is trying to remain as close to the classic Pre-LotR as possible, which makes sense since he is attempting to remake Melkor{WC}'s map that everyone loved so much. (Although I seem to recall Melkor enjoying Post-LotR more.)


Melk did prefer Post, I think because Pre always felt too competitive or twitchy. Post was an incredibly fun game, its just that Pre always felt more... something. I dunno, but anyways I'm starting triggers and upgrades now. It's gonna be a rough start though because I opened the trigger editor for the first time yesterday :)
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Would it be mean for me to say how happy I am that Pre converted really well?

Not at all! I'm really glad Pre converted fine, and you didn't have to go through a redesign like I did. I'm not happy with how the terrain turned out, and I expect it'll get criticism, but I'll worry about fixing it or finding a more skilled terrain designer to fix it later. :)

Motherships are a poor substitution, but thats what I'm using for arbs. They already have recall and a Stasis like effect, so I just tweaked Recall a little bit and am deciding what I wanna do with Vortex. Corsairs I've kinda brought back using the Phoenix model, attack isnt nearly as cool as Neutron flare but it seems to work pretty well. I have DWeb using the psi storm model (I couldn't find anything else more appropriate) and Dark Swarm and Ensnare are back (don't think I'll bring back plague and just give Ensnare to dark visions)

I haven't tried to make D-Web, Dark Swarm, or Ensnare. (Isn't there something like ensnare already?) Not sure when I'll get around to that, as I'll probably finish everything else up first. I'm exploring some of the new abilities rather than sticking to rote reproduction because I think it's important to take into account that the new abilities are good as well.

Melk did prefer Post, I think because Pre always felt too competitive or twitchy. Post was an incredibly fun game, its just that Pre always felt more... something.

Melk never had a problem with competition that I recall. There were a few reasons, and the fact that Pre was played so damn much was certainly one of them. ;)

If you get stuck on triggers and want some help, I'd be happy to assist.
Edited by Kalreborn on 8/10/2010 9:45 AM PDT
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Would it be mean for me to say how happy I am that Pre converted really well?


If it converted fine then power to you. I wonder what makes the difference though. WoP converted without cliffs, just hills, which is definetly unplayable. Modifying it from there would be as much work as recreating it. I used x-tra editor for the design, I wonder if that has something to do with it.

Btw, have you found a simple way of being able to stack buildings and place them on cliffs/water but not allow units to walk through them?
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Maldais,

I also used x-tra editor (as one of many tools) and had the same issue with the dirty hill conversion.

What do you mean with the buildings? There are a few ways to stop units from walking through modified buildings. Set ground and burrowed collision, or try enabling or disabling doodad footprint (if using a doodad, and if it's not behaving as expected to begin with).
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I haven't tried for awhile, and it was back in beta, but the issue I ran into was that if I set the collision to 0 so I could place the buildings anywhere and stack them, then units could walk right through. I want to be able to place them like in xtra editor, but have them keep their collision while in game.
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I don't know if the new map editor supports it, but could use the old "walk your probe onto the race you wanna play" trick from bw.

I'm glad this is getting some attention. Anyone working on a 2nd age map? I scrolled through the thread and didn't see any.

I think one thing that might be a problem is that you no longer have the tower nullifying abilities you did in sc1 AND and you they took a tower killing unit type out (the scarab launching crawlers, name escapes me). I think base defense design is going to be essential to tweek.
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