StarCraft® II

Zerg needs some serious help...

Posts: 1,350
I believe that most of Zerg's problems come from the fact that there is no "valid" anti-air early-game. Protoss and Terran can choose to wall off their entrance very effectively; Terran has repairable buildings which can either burrow or lift off to allow ground troops to pass by without the need for aircraft transport, while Protoss can get a sentry or two to forcefield his choke for quite some time.

Due to lack of any decent ranged units early-game, Zerg cannot realistically break through a blocked choke; The only valid strategy of rushing against a walled opponent(note: almost every opponent) involves sacrificing banelings on buildings, which means that you effectively waste multiple(at least 8 if you want to break anything) 50 mineral 25 gas units to break in, and THEN you get to fight his army with yours. Now you must be thinking: you better be damn sure that your army after banelings > his army if you are investing ~ 400 mineral 200 gas just to be allowed to fight army vs army, but you can never be sure due to the following point.

As a zerg, neither of the other two races are scoutable if the opponent puts his mind into not being scouted. This is because... the other two races have early, yet very solid air-attacking units(marines, stalkers, and sentries). These units, being... units, are never wasted(unlike stationary defense structures) and can combine with your army at any time while preventing any overlord from scouting. A terran has insanely rigged scouting capabilities; There is literally zero way of stopping a scan from happening, and terrans have an access to a 1000 hp overlord that flies faster(a barracks, for the slower people), yay. A protoss has equally difficult time scouting terrans and other... protoss, but at the very least you won't get surprised by "air-rush" as easily because no matter which path you took, there is anti-air built in with your army(stalkers and sentries with warp gate for instant additional stalker support if you went ground route, if you went air route... yea... everything you built can attack air).

A zerg has... zero way of stopping scout from happening from any race. You can't block your entrance with buildings, due to the creep requirement(not that you would even want to anyway, seeing as how zerg buildings have the slowest build time, you'd have to leave a gap for your own units to pass through, and god help you if you want to put zerglings in that gap to get mass massacred by a single zealot), so your only option if you want to have the same super secret base is to block off your entrance with units. Now, let's say you blocked it off with 6 zerglings(if you block it with roaches or any greater number of zerglings, you've already done the scouting for him) a terran can obviously bypass it with the scan or 1000 hp, 150 mineral overlord that flies faster, as mentioned above while a protoss can spend 200 minerals to stomp the lings and get inside to see base or army(again, stopping these zealots would involve showing him your army, which is the whole point).


TLDR: Please give the zerg an access to build a flying building like barracks for 100 minerals(the drone would be consumed, making it same as barracks in almost every way) so that they can scout the others as easily as they can be scouted. It is extremely frustrating to see terran and protoss blocking their entrance off while seeing what I'm doing at any given moment should they wish to. I just want the 1000 HP overlord to scout around instead of a larvae-consuming, 100 minerals, slowest-unit-in-the-game scout.
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Posts: 33
Just send out your drone earlier.
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Posts: 1,917
Please give the zerg an access to build a flying building like barracks.


I lol'd.

But really, if you scout early enough before they wall, you can gather enough information. Mid game, you can use Changelings from Overseers. Stating that the other races are unscoutable is pretty funny. They aren't unscoutable. They very much are scoutable. It's how effectively are you scouting is the question.
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Posts: 8,981
huh? Well how would a zergling flying barracks help scouting? lol

My advice (garnered from better players) to you is to scout early with a drone.

Then mid game sacrifice an overlord or use a overseer's changling. Its worth every mineral.

How are you diamond and saying the other races are unscoutable? That just confuzzles me.
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Posts: 14
Are you referring to just 4 player 1v1 maps? On a 2 player 1v1 map, you can just scout before they wall off, but on a 4 player 1v1 map, you'll have to get lucky or scout VERY early.


I see your point on 4 player maps.
I disagree with this being an issue on 2 player maps.
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Posts: 2,541
I believe that most of Zerg's problems come from the fact that there is no "valid" anti-air early-game.


I stopped reading right there. You have queens, end of story.
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Posts: 1,350
if you send a drone in before the protoss or terran blocks his entrance the very first attacking unit that comes out(1 marine or 1 zealot) will chase that drone to its eventual death before you see what route he's taken. All you will see at the most is 1 gateway/barracks, how many gas he's built until that point, and the cybernatics core/factory being built(cybernatics core has been built in literally 100% of my games against protoss, btw. however, there are countless different ways they go from there from researching warpgate and building 3-4 more gateways for power-building army with a pylon somewhere near my base, teching straight to void ray after blocking with 2 zealot 1 sentry(most annoying), teching to colossus, mass stalker, etc.).

So what am I supposed to do with this incredible information that my opponent has 1 barracks/gateway, has built 1 gas refinery, and is in the process of building a cybernatics core/factory before my drone dies? Do I put on my wizard hat and predict what he's going for? I can't even count how many games I've lost simply because I couldn't tell wtf is coming; There have been times I've baneling busted walls guarded by 2 marines or 2 zealots and walked into find 2 helions and 10 marines or zealots+sentry, because I couldn't tell he "hid" them inside. There have been other times I expected they were building some large early-force(similar to the cases mentioned above) and got myself a decent army of roaches and a spinecrawler or two, then two banshees fly in and kill my queen followed by all my workers.

NOTE: I'm not saying that I never win. I do win fair amount of games but only when my predictions do indeed turn out to be true(ex. I sent a zergling and it died to 2 zealots and 1 sentry backing it up in my most recent match, predicted void ray soon, went hydra and built an extra queen, won the game) but there's at least 30% chance that my prediction is off and there is nothing I can do to make sure, no matter what I'm willing to invest within reasonable boundaries(no using 12 overlords early game to scout if the opponent is teching or not). I've had A LOT of games where people have blocked their choke with a 2 pylons, gateway, 2 zealots, and a sentry so far and I almost always start preparing for void ray. I'd say about two games out of every 10, the opponent wants to be super genius tactician and actually hide his other 3 gateways out visible range along with his real army, and just come stomp my entire base+army once he's verified that his army > mine. My complaint is that I cannot do the same.
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Posts: 1,917
Take your drone, make an extractor on your opponents geyser. Extends the life of your drone while your opponent wastes time trying to kill it.
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Posts: 90
I've never had trouble scouting anyone with my early drone (I scout with my 10th usually). Also, Zerg have no shortage of overlords, and overseers after lair as Myke pointed out. To be honest, in most games that I win as Zerg, I have such dominant map control that I can see any time they poke their head out of their base. I have overseers overlooking every expansion, and zerglings at every watchtower. Changelings have worked wonders for me so far, even experienced players don't always catch them if their attention is elsewhere, and it's not like you lose anything casting one. Once zerg has map control like that, you can just attrition them, countering any unit composition they try to put together; if you're keeping on top of your scouting you should certainly know what kind of army they're putting together.

Due to lack of any decent ranged units early-game, Zerg cannot realistically break through a blocked choke; The only valid strategy of rushing against a walled opponent(note: almost every opponent) involves sacrificing banelings on buildings, which means that you effectively waste multiple(at least 8 if you want to break anything) 50 mineral 25 gas units to break in, and THEN you get to fight his army with yours.


Don't bother throwing your army up against the wall, let him hold up in his base while you expand, and counter any attempt he makes at expanding. It'll make for a longer game than a zergling win, but if you're at least as skilled as your opponent, you have a damn good shot at winning.


That said, I will admit that zerg has some annoying flaws. In particular I find anything other than 1v1 annoying as hell to play unless my teammate is also zerg. The shared bases in a few of the 2v2 maps I've played can be a @!*!% when you get a teammate who doesn't communicate well and turtles up the ramp, forcing you to play 1 base zerg (which is not fun). This problem likely wouldn't exist for me if I had decent people to play with though. I suppose playing with random pubs is frustrating no matter which race you are.

On a side note: Wow Ringo, you're in the same division as Idra. Good luck homie. ;)
Edited by Pwnyboy on 8/2/2010 9:54 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,350
huh? Well how would a zergling flying barracks help scouting? lol

My advice (garnered from better players) to you is to scout early with a drone.

Then mid game sacrifice an overlord or use a overseer's changling. Its worth every mineral.

How are you diamond and saying the other races are unscoutable? That just confuzzles me.


Addressed in my super long post above, but in simpler words:

a flying barracks would give me a 10 times more durable overlord that provides no supply, but flies faster.

Scouting early with a drone doesn't get me any vital information to win or even survive, not even early game(all you see is # of gas, a basic unit training structure, and cybernatics core or factory starting to be built before your drone is dead to the first troop that comes out). Lost plenty of games where I scouted a terran has built 1 barracks and 1 factory and replay later revealed that he built 3 more barracks after I got crushed by zillion marines and 2 tanks. (FYI, I predicted early banshee and starting building lair and got ~8 hydras by the time he came with this force). I've also lost games where I expected the opponent to go factory heavy or infantry heavy and 2 banshees just screwed me over.

The complaint involves early game scouting and being vulnerable to other races' scouts. Overseer is way too slow(I'm most frustrated about not being able to forsee air units) and overlords die before seeing anything, as mentioned in my OP.
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Posts: 1,350
I believe that most of Zerg's problems come from the fact that there is no "valid" anti-air early-game.


I stopped reading right there. You have queens, end of story.


Yes, I want to start building extra queens in every game I play as retard-spine crawlers if the opponent doesn't go for air. This is only fair, seeing as how 150 minerals is very cheap and their attack is very formidable, in addition to their zergling-like speed everywhere on the map.
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Posts: 1,350
so this person made a thread saying taht Zerg lacks early Anti Air so they can't deal with people walling in... WTF


I made a thread saying that zerg can't scout due to people walling in, so I can NEVER be sure if the opponent is going air. If I prepare for air and he doesn't, I'm screwed. If I don't prepare for air and he does, I'm screwed. This doesn't sound very fun.
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Posts: 1,917
Many people do not have issues scouting and gathering the intel they require to counter. You are. Sounds like its an issue with your scouting and "doing it properly".

Overseers make Changelings. Changelings are quite potent for feeding information.

To be fair, it just sounds like you're making up impossible situations for you to not be able to scout properly for you to attempt to drive your point across.

Edit:
Draemos:
Scouting strategies?

Always keep a zergling at his exit ramp so you know exactly when he moves an army outside of his base. This is the point where you abuse your Queen's spawn larva ability to get a large army consisting of proper counters.

Always keep zerglings at every Xel-naga tower.

Cover the map in overlords(get the OL speed upgrade every game)... nothing shoulda move an inch outside of his base without you knowing about it. Use changlings to see his unit composition... if changlings are being denied, then sacrifise a speed upgraded OL... its 100 minerals well spent.

Expand your creep as far as possible. Creed gives you vision.

You can also burrow zerglings at expansion points and high traffic areas.
Edited by Myke on 8/2/2010 9:55 PM PDT
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Posts: 476
I believe that most of Zerg's problems come from the fact that there is no "valid" anti-air early-game.


I stopped reading right there. You have queens, end of story.

rofl, i thought the same thing
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Posts: 1,350
I've never had trouble scouting anyone with my early drone (I scout with my 10th usually). Also, Zerg have no shortage of overlords, and overseers after lair as Myke pointed out. To be honest, in most games that I win as Zerg, I have such dominant map control that I can see any time they poke their head out of their base. I have overseers overlooking every expansion, and zerglings at every watchtower. Changelings have worked wonders for me so far, even experienced players don't always catch them if their attention is elsewhere, and it's not like you lose anything casting one. Once zerg has map control like that, you can just attrition them, countering any unit composition they try to put together; if you're keeping on top of your scouting you should certainly know what kind of army they're putting together.


I've lost countless games because I wanted such dominant map control that I can see any time they poke their head out of their base. To be honest, I stopped scouting with a drone early game because based on my experience, they provided nothing(I still do against some terran in a small map, just to harass SCV while getting the limited info). I almost always early expand, and try to guess what the opponent is doing from there. Here's the thing: My 10 most recent matches against a non-zerg, the opponent did a wall-in in some form. Some pushed out while I was still happily pumping drones after my zergling died to a lone zealot a minute before while some teched to void ray while I built 3 spine crawlers and 12 zerglings as a defense on my natural. The most annoying type of opponent is the type that does the wall in WITH their natural expansion inside; Sometimes they are massing tier 1 units deeper inside their base with the usual 2-3 unit defense at the wall, sometimes they've built a command center and lift it off to expand, sometimes they just teched air, etc.

Again, since many of you seem confused, I'm QQing about being completely unable to scout from the moment the opponent gets 1 stalker or 1 marine, and not knowing wtf to expect while your base is wide open for everyone's oogling eyes.
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Posts: 1,917
Vineheart:
Scouting at about 9 food is the best first scout ive noticed. By then, unless theyre good terrans and block off VERY quick, you can get into the base and see if theyre doign double rax or teching up. If double rax, prepare for a rush most likely or an early push. If teching, harrass if possible elsewise tech up yourself and expand.

I just did a game where the only route to the natural expansion was through the main base aside from air, so my protoss opponent blocked himself in with the intent of going mass stalkers and air. Instant i noticed he had that wall solid, not blocked by a zealot, i knew he was teching without going further. So i instantly ignored getting any lings (in fact i canceled the 3 i had going), started my Lair, and got mutas out asap. Sure enough, stalkers came to meet me...after i picked off some workers.

Obviously he would win if i just did air, so i secretly expanded twice for a LOT of minerals and threw whatever excess minerals i had into speedlings and hid them till i was able to burst his wall open. He died......quick.... lol

-----------
Why am I posting these? To disprove your theory. Again as I said, others are having much more successful instances in scouting. You aren't. Logic dictates that your scouting skills are failing you.

Again, since many of you seem confused, I'm QQing about being completely unable to scout from the moment the opponent gets 1 stalker or 1 marine, and not knowing wtf to expect while your base is wide open for everyone's oogling eyes.


Sorry to sound like an ass but scout earlier.
Edited by Myke on 8/2/2010 10:04 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,350
Btw, if any of you that are disagreeing with me are able to play right now and are willing to spare 10 minutes, I do want to play a "practice game" against you and see if you can scout(I don't want guessing, since that'd defeat the whole purpose. You have to actually see what I've built with an overlord or ground units) when you play zerg and I play terran or protoss, your choice.

I'm pretty confident that I can keep whatever the hell zerg has early-game out of my base while being able to tell what you are making. Frankly, I can't even believe that people are actually arguing it's not hard to scout. There is at least a several minutes period in which you are incapable of scouting a terran or protoss's walled off base as a zerg no matter what you do, unless you completely destroy his wall and get inside(again, takes guessing).
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Posts: 6
They aren't unscoutable. You have Overlords, use them. Any good Zerg player will throw in an Overlord around the time of a tech switch/tech up to see what's happening. Sure, you sack an Overlord, but you gain info.

The main problem with Zerg is they have no basic 1 supply unit that's any good anymore. Zerglings are crap unless you have them en mass and can get a good surround, but they're really .5 supply. The Roach, while it was overpowered, fit into the swarm mentality. Honestly at this point I'd rather them remove Roaches altogether and just patch in a new unit, even after release. I've felt this way even before Phase 2 beta started up.
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Posts: 90
Well he does have a small point. There's a narrow window between your first drone and your lair tech where it's really hard to penetrate their base. After they kill your drone, and before you get a lair you're pretty much in the dark, and have to make a call on what they're doing. It is a narrow window though, and I (so far) haven't lost a game to some crazy trick, or strategy shift they've done after my drone died but before I could get an overlord in there (that isn't to say it couldn't happen, especially in the higher leagues).

Also remember Myke, he's in diamond league, and obviously doesn't belong there. He's up against people who probably have crazy APM, and micro skills, as well as solid macro and timing sense. Most likely these are people who rocked the Beta (hell he's in the same division as Idra as I pointed out). There's a good chance that he really is having a lot of difficulty dealing with it at the moment. If you can Ringo, why don't you post some replays to help back up your point, or at the very least get some feedback on how to improve your game? It can't hurt, right?
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