StarCraft® II

Zerg needs some serious help...

Posts: 1,329
They aren't unscoutable. You have Overlords, use them. Any good Zerg player will throw in an Overlord around the time of a tech switch/tech up to see what's happening. Sure, you sack an Overlord, but you gain info.

The main problem with Zerg is they have no basic 1 supply unit that's any good anymore. Zerglings are crap unless you have them en mass and can get a good surround, but they're really .5 supply. The Roach, while it was overpowered, fit into the swarm mentality. Honestly at this point I'd rather them remove Roaches altogether and just patch in a new unit, even after release. I've felt this way even before Phase 2 beta started up.


I lost about 6 games in a row of 1v1 from guessing incorrectly. Honestly, all of my games involve sacrificing overlords into the enemy's base to see if and when he's building air or large force. I'll admit, most of the time, I'm successful(had a really long win streak too), but when I get unlucky like the 6 game loss streak, I meet opponents who actually "hide" their production building/army out of the edge of the base and kill my overlord with any combination of small troops which don't tell me anything. I've had plenty of overlords killed by 3 marines before I saw anything more than supply depots. WTF should I do, set up two or three overlords on different sides of his base and send them in simultaneously?
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Posts: 1,883
Frankly, I can't even believe that people are actually arguing it's not hard to scout. There is at least a several minutes period in which you are incapable of scouting a terran or protoss's walled off base as a zerg no matter what you do, unless you completely destroy his wall and get inside(again, takes guessing).


Changelings. If you aren't using Changelings, in fact, if you aren't using ALL of your available resources to scout your opponent's base and can only think of going through the front door, then you have already lost. If you are unwilling to use something else to scout, then no one else can help you.

If I can't scout through the front door, I'll come in from the side. If I can't come in from the side, then I'll find some other way to scout.

WTF should I do, set up two or three overlords on different sides of his base and send them in simultaneously?


Yup.
Edited by Myke on 8/2/2010 10:16 PM PDT
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Posts: 44
I almost always early expand, and try to guess what the opponent is doing from there. Here's the thing: My 10 most recent matches against a non-zerg, the opponent did a wall-in in some form. Some pushed out while I was still happily pumping drones after my zergling died to a lone zealot a minute before while some teched to void ray while I built 3 spine crawlers and 12 zerglings as a defense on my natural.


You're doing it wrong. That's not scouting -- that's guessing. You should always be scouting, using whatever means you have available to you. Zerglings, overlords, changelings, burrowed roaches, infested terrans, creep, etc. You can't really complain when you get overrun by a small strike force when you've opted to guess that your opponent is sitting on their laurels and twiddling their thumbs, and therefore have just been pumping drones.

Fun fact: a stolen gas geyser (cancelled and re-built ad nauseum) will pretty much prevent super early void ray rushes. And even if it didn't, get an extra queen and you'd be fine. But you need a drone in their base early to do it. Even seeing what addon a terran is putting on their first barracks tells you a lot. Tech lab? Plan for reapers. No tech lab? Probably no reaper. There, you've already gotten some useful information.

Zerg isn't the problem here.
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Posts: 1,738
If you think about it, Zerg can get air faster than any other race. You just have to make a spawning pool, lair, and you can start making a spire. Technically, you could get mutas way before your toss and terran opponent are even building Starports/gates.

Also your overseers are an incredible unit. The can scout, detect, and even harass.

Here's the deal, Zerg players aren't using all the tools available to them. Heck, even I don't do it all the time. However, its not the race, its the player.
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Posts: 205
i liek zerg
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Posts: 1,329
This is pretty retarded. I already told you why I've resorted to guessing: because I can't actually scout; All I can see is what he's blocked off his choke with and what he's killed my overlord(s) with(usually a few marines or few stalkers). I can only surmise what my opponent has along with his wall and what he's killed my overlord with. It could be his entire army/building while he's teching, or he could have larger force inside that I didn't see.

You folks also keep bringing up overseers, and one even managed to bring up burrowed roach, infested terran, and creep(lol). If I get that far in a game, I'm not worried about scouting as I do indeed have countless methods of seeing the opponent's base(usually speed upgraded overlord just making a straight dash across base). The issue is that I cannot get to the lair part of the game with 100% certainty that the opponent did not just mass ground troops while I got to lair + spent 150/150 + spire or hydralisk den. Believe or not, spending 150 /100 upgrading lair is a huge investment that early in the game, and could mean the defeat right there if you get 4 gate pushed. I really, really hate it but I just don't feel safe against any protoss who's walled off without at least 2 spine crawlers, since 4 gate is way too popular of a strategy. Most protoss players do in fact almost always go for the extreme-heavy gateway unit push the entire game and later get colossus, and it's hard enough as-is even if I fully expectd it to come. If the protoss just teched to void ray while I built a few lings and 2 spine crawlers? It's gg while my lair is building if he chrono boosts a single void ray out and start channeling the hatchery.

Again, I really do want to see one of you hardcore scouters in action and plead you to demonstrate this extreme scouting skills to me so that I may learn. I'll pick protoss or terran of your choice, you will be zerg, and you'll be asked to tell if I've taken the tech to air or massed ground army throughout the game. I'm very thrilled.
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Posts: 1,329
If you think about it, Zerg can get air faster than any other race. You just have to make a spawning pool, lair, and you can start making a spire. Technically, you could get mutas way before your toss and terran opponent are even building Starports/gates.

Also your overseers are an incredible unit. The can scout, detect, and even harass.

Here's the deal, Zerg players aren't using all the tools available to them. Heck, even I don't do it all the time. However, its not the race, its the player.


Zerg can indeed get air faster than any other race. This is even moreso since you can train about 5 mutalisks at once as soon as your spire is done if you time it right very early. The obvious problem here is that you have zero way of stopping a single worker from finding out what you're doing(you can't even spare minerals on zerglings if you went that extreme of a route), and protoss and terran both have access to anti-air without having to spend a billion years upgrading their nexus or command center.

Also the overseers are incredible indeed. They can do all the things you've listed, except the whole point of this post was the impossibility of scouting in the time frame between your early drone scout(extremely early) and overseer.
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Posts: 90
I'm willing to have a few games with you if you want to experiment Ringo. Keep in mind I'm only gold league (probably moving up shortly), so the people I've been facing haven't been top notch. Nonetheless I'm sure with some careful analysis we can come to a reasonable conclusion on this issue.

On a side note: Have you tried watching some of the tournament replays from the beta on teamliquid? There are some great zerg players in there, you can learn a lot about scouting from them because scouting is absolutely critical at that level of play.
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Posts: 1,329
I'm willing to have a few games with you if you want to experiment Ringo. Keep in mind I'm only gold league (probably moving up shortly), so the people I've been facing haven't been top notch. Nonetheless I'm sure with some careful analysis we can come to a reasonable conclusion on this issue.

On a side note: Have you tried watching some of the tournament replays from the beta on teamliquid? There are some great zerg players in there, you can learn a lot about scouting from them because scouting is absolutely critical at that level of play.


The only tournament replay I've seen of a zerg player was two of idra's against some random terran. He failed at guessing(yes, guessing, like me) in both of these scenarios and lost, while calling the terran player a homo and implying that he got cheesed; In the first game, his drone scouted 1 barracks and a factory(wow, what a surprise, same thing I described in several posts), went lings and roaches+went to expand to natural, and got rolled over by 5 barracks 1 factory tank push, to which he said "the reason there aren't many zerg players is that @%%%!*s like you use gay strategies like these." In the second game, I believe he failed to even get a drone in, since it was a 4 player map and he didn't get there in time, and went baneling+zergling bust. He lost because he brought the wall down to be greeted by a bunker(I'm pretty sure he started building this after lolscouting the zerg and seeing lings) and... a banshee(yes, supposedly super expert players like idra gets his baneling bust stopped bya banshee shooting at his zergling), and he silent-rage quit upon seeing that banshee shooting his zerglings down.

So yea, I'm not entirely convinced.
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Posts: 90
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118879
Game 1 of the finals, Whitera blocks off his natural, and Idra scouts him out with an overlord to see his build.

I notice he doesn't bother going in until he has overlord speed, because he knows stalkers will just down it, but he went for overlord speed pretty quick.
Edited by Pwnyboy on 8/2/2010 11:22 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,738
If you think about it, Zerg can get air faster than any other race. You just have to make a spawning pool, lair, and you can start making a spire. Technically, you could get mutas way before your toss and terran opponent are even building Starports/gates.

Also your overseers are an incredible unit. The can scout, detect, and even harass.

Here's the deal, Zerg players aren't using all the tools available to them. Heck, even I don't do it all the time. However, its not the race, its the player.


Zerg can indeed get air faster than any other race. This is even moreso since you can train about 5 mutalisks at once as soon as your spire is done if you time it right very early. The obvious problem here is that you have zero way of stopping a single worker from finding out what you're doing(you can't even spare minerals on zerglings if you went that extreme of a route), and protoss and terran both have access to anti-air without having to spend a billion years upgrading their nexus or command center.

Also the overseers are incredible indeed. They can do all the things you've listed, except the whole point of this post was the impossibility of scouting in the time frame between your early drone scout(extremely early) and overseer.


Well I'm assuming that you're expanding, and controlling the map while you're going mutas. That should give you plenty of minerals to get mutas and still spawn all the lings you want. Besides, I'd never mass mutas. I'd just make 5, send them into his backdoor for a little harassment (and a peek at his base), and move on to something else. Your meat and potatoes should be a constant zerg/baneling rush. I just keep slamming the lings into his base over and over again.

As for the overseer, you should drop a changeling everytime he's over the enemy base. Sometimes I drop overseers in the thick of a battle. You'd be amazed how most people don't even notice him. Now you have a scout that's telling you exactly what your opponent is doing and where he is.

Look man, I'm not saying Zerg aren't the underdogs, honestly they are. However, they're the underdogs because you have to fight dirty, and you got to be everywhere. You have to constantly push against him and harass him until he gives up. If you do your job right, your opponent will start hunkering down and start playing defensive. That's when the game falls into your lap.



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Posts: 5
No offense myke... but you do realize you're BRONZE league trying to teach a diamond player how to play? Even if you don't think he belongs in diamond, he's def at least platinum if he is up in diamond.

Here's my thoughts on your problem Ringo... the thing is you're still guessing. What I like to do after initial scouting, if they're blocked off like you mentioned... I kinda bait them into showing their units. I send in a couple lings and I start attacking their supply depot. Usually all their marines are bunched up there and start attacking. I kinda estimate the amt of units I see as well as the number of marauders. Like I said.. it's still a guessing game but it gives you a much better idea of where to guess. It has so many variables though ((size of) map, timing, etc...).

Also, to those saying that he should just get changelings... often times, that's too late...
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Posts: 90
The only problem with baiting him into showing his hand is that it'll only work well on less experienced players. A really paranoid (read "smart") terran, for instance, will just try and hold off with the bare minimum units he needs to prevent you from getting through (4-6 marines for instance). Experienced players know that showing their hand to a zerg (the most reactionary race) is kind of like saying GG, so even though it probably works for you a lot (and I don't doubt that it works the majority of the time), Ringo's problem is summed up as such:

What do you do against a really skilled opponent who's dedicated himself to hiding his tech from you, in order to preform some kind of timing attack, taking advantage of the narrow window between the drone and the speed overlord scout. Is there any way to figure out what he's doing in that window, because certain strategies can take advantage of it, and force you to make a guess.

Remember though Ringo, it's a gamble for the other player too, what if you guess right and counter him? He does only have that narrow window of time to exploit you (what, like two, three minutes maybe? OL speed upgrades quite quickly).
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Posts: 4
I understand Ringo's logic. You send a scout out way early, you manage to scout his base and find..... workers around a command center, not much intel there (aside from their location). You try to scout later on and find.... a wall which you can't penetrate now, not even with burrowing units (why they can't go under buildings is a studid mechanic). Terrans can scan at any time WITHOUT risking a unit with their sensor sweep. And if terrans need to get over a wall....they use a reaper.

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Posts: 36
Well Zerg may also Wall off easyer and cheaper if u think about it if u do what i do(if your smart)
I always have atleast 3 overlords around my base mostly spread out. to see around my hole base.
About 13 pool into the game i get about 6 zerglings
Throw them across my front door and do hold passion so not only does it allow you to keep out probe SCVs etc,etc it also attacks them if they come and it alerts when the enemy is nockin on your front door i get my roachs to come up behind my zerglings and as hes killing my zerglings my roachs take his place.
Simple counter for 1.0 units.
But im stuck on the void ray deal.
I cant seem to grasp the hole queen thing someone explain the for me please.
Please and thank you.
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Posts: 29
I think Ringo may have a point. From what I've been reading here on the forums, Zerg is the race that most relies on scouting, yet it is the worst equipped to do so. Sure, you can drone-scout early and see little that will help you (Protoss is in the same boat here), or later you can sac a OL and get a glimpse, but what other race needs to sac a unit just to see your enemy's base? Terrans can sweep and 'Toss get observers, which are cloaked. I think the priority for scouting is pretty backwards. Terrans, who need scouting the least with the current balance have the best scouting abilities; Sensor Sweep. Protoss have a great midgame scout. It's cloaked, and placed properly can spy on an enemy base and never be detected. Now don't get me wrong, the changeling is a great scout for zerg but it may come too late-game. Since Zerg need to react to to their enemies choices to be effective they need an effective scout early. I dont really have any suggestions, but I did like the Original queen's parasite ability.
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Posts: 84
i understand your frustration OP. the face of the matter is there is a time frame vs terran and protoss in which scouting is literally impossible. i also find it frustration that zerg cannot wall off their base, nor would it be desirable if they could. for those of you suggesting queens are our early anti-air counter....... you must be joking. the fact of the matter is zerg is the only race with no tier 1.xx unit that can attack air, and we suffer because of it.
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Posts: 6
It just seems to me that you are complaining that one race can't do the same thing as the others... but isn't that the point of different races?
I agree, between an early drone and an overseer, you probably won't be able to scout. BIG DEAL. You may have to scout a little later, but Zerg can react much faster. As soon as your changeling sees banshees, BAM Hydralisk den and extra queen before they can get 2 banshees, and then 7 or more Hydras before a 3rd banshee.
If you have such an issue that Zerg is different from Terran and Protoss, then play Terran or Protoss.
Have you actually seen people scout with a barrack? That would be freakin hilarious; I've never seen that.
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Posts: 380
Just send out your drone earlier.


Hey bud, I know you're only silver so I'll forgive you for not understanding the "intricacies" of scouting strategy.

If you send a drone in before a terran has completed their wall, you've just wasted a drone. Not only do you still have no idea what strategy he's actually going, but you have no viable way to micro a drone out of a marine's attack. Wasted.

Protoss is a bit different, you can scout pretty well there, but that doesn't stop them from raising a second gate hidden after blocking a choke with the first one.
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