Zerg needs some serious help...

Posts: 1,362
I'm pretty sure I'm starting to get trolled at this point, so I'll just try to make this my last post:

To those who say zerg can react super fast upon seeing an air unit: You are most likely the main trolls, if you see a banshee or void ray, it's already too late. Even assuming you took the lair tech(which is already guessing that the opponent went for air tech, since lair tech is guranteed loss vs infantry+tank push or 4 gate push), your queen and most of your drones would be dead by the time hydralisk den finishes if you started building it AFTER seeing the air. I know this, so I just build 2 evolutionary chambers the moment I get a glimpse of an air unit and it has never saved my ass in any of my game since 1) by the time evolutionary chamber finishes, my queen is dead and 2) if my evolutionary chamber does finish, because the opponent focused on killing drones first(this is obviously worse for me), I now start building about 10 spore crawlers, none of which get even half way done.

To those who say I'm bad for not willing to sacrifice an overlord to get priceless intel: First of all, 100 minerals is nothing to laugh at, especially that early in a game. I also already mentioned in several posts in this thread alone that I do in fact sacrifice an overlord and also mention that it's dead at least half the time before getting to see anything meaningful to 3 marines or two stalkers. What the hell did I get out from tossing 100 minerals away? I got to see some pylons and 2 stalkers? The damn thing flies so slow that you should be perceived as a bad for letting an overlord scout anything meaningful.

To those who say it's a narrow window of time that the terran/protoss player has and it is their given right to exploit this opportunity: This narrow window of time between the time you can get a drone in and before overseer or speed upgraded overlord comes out is arguably the most crucial point of the game: It is when people take their tech or mass tier 1 army to do a heavy push with. Frankly, scouting isn't even necessary extreme-late game when army composition is grossly obvious; It is this early to mid game transition where the opponent is either stupid-vulnerable(techd to air or other tier 3) or an extreme threat(massed tier 1 nonstop). You can lose if you don't know what's coming at you, as I mentioned in almost every post I've written in this thread; I'll even mention it again: Against a walled protoss for example. You see 1 gateway and 2 pylons blocking entrance, there are 2 zealots, a stalker, and a sentry visible. What do I do? Most of the time I predict a heavy gateway unit push, since I've bitten the dust too many times to this crap, but way too often I build spine crawlers and some zerglings to defend to be greeted by 2 void rays charging up on my hatchery. I'll say this again: if you do not get spine crawlers aginst a 4 gate, you aren't stopping it without putting even more resources into units. The obvious problem here is that you literally have no way of knowing if it's air tech or 4 gate with the 2 MPH flying wonders that cost valuable larvae and 100 minerals.

To the guy that says scouting with barracks is unique and would be hilarious: You must be either trolling or not realize how utterly overpowered this is. It costs half the scan's cost, is permanently there until killed, and is literally a 1000 HP overlord that flies faster. People did this in professional korean starcraft leagues in SC:BW and people do this now if they want to scout without being retarded(hurrr I want to spend 300 minerals to look at my opponent's base for 10 seconds rather than spending 150 minerals to fly straight across his entire base, then get to fly over it again 2 minutes later to see if anything's changed). I'd love nothing more than a new zerg structure named the flying zergling: 2 minute build time(yes, I'd settle for that), 100 minerals, 1000 hp, same flight speed as barracks. Funny thing is, people will scream overpowered at this.

Last but not least, the guy who suggested a starter drone hiding in the opponent's base to SURPRISE SCOUT HIM AT THE MOST CRUCIAL TIME! I will admit that I didn't even think of that, and I will also admit that it'd work at least 90% of the time since people wouldn't scout their edges for hidden zerg units after walling off, but... 1 drone out of the initial 6 you start with? The opportunity cost there is pretty much immeasurable for that drone. If this was troll, well played.
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I feel the need to really put this out there. Zerg is a Late Game race. They can rush hard and fast if they choose too but that doesnt garuntee that they will win considering their units arent as powerful as terran/protoss early game. Zerg should always be 1 or 2 steps ahead in tech. Ive rushed a zerg while they dualed and they still ended up out rushing me. Infestors + hydras + banelings is very overpowered early game. Use them wisely! Dont know what infestors slime is called but it can damage air units very well.
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Posts: 138
Two queens, with enough energy for 1-2 transfusions, can hold off early void ray/banshee cheese (2-3). It takes a little bit of micro, but not much. If I spot terran or protoss getting an early gas, or if I'm just feel that they're going to early air rush, I get another queen.

That second queen is useful beyond just a possible AA. She can start spreading the creep while your other queen pops larva every time it's up.
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Posts: 20
LOL @ ur last Post Ringo with the well played comment
anyways ive only played this game for a couple days but it seems to me u have a valid point.
to all the people that dont play on that level u need to be more open minded about this.. the better the players r the more important every liittle detail is. if a scouting issue like this can make it so u have to guess what to do, and may or may not win because of it, then it probably needs to be looked at. its a huge advantage at a higher level of play. things that probably wont affect people and u may not even notice as much when ur in the bronze silver and gold leagues can really hurt in the higher leagues. I hear alot of talk about how zerg are the weakest race(not sure if its true or not). maybe a fix for this would even it up slightly
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Posts: 1
Just give zerglings LEAP.

Nice, useful, solves the problem AND has the perfect "look" of a zerg ability.

You know, why the hell they did NOT think of this before ?

EDIT: researcheable ability, of course. Has a cost, takes some time, but solves the problem.
Edited by Namek on 8/3/2010 7:25 AM PDT
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Posts: 10
so im thinking Namek has played natural selection lol....

OP has a perfectly valid point, I find scouting at that crucial tier1---> transitional extremely cumbersome, so much that I've gotten in the habit of 8pool rushing then transitioning to my queen/tech, simply so I can set back a toss player, and get more vision of their base.
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Posts: 48
Zerg has so many options for scouting way more than any other race

Terran can scout anywhere but at the cost of 300 minerals (the amount that would be made from a mule)

Zerg can easily take xel naga towers with speedlings, Position overlords around the map and expansions, Changelings, Speed Overlords into base. Also you can place a zergling outside his ramp to see when hes moving out

There is a small period of time before you get overlord speed where you wont be able to scout but its not game changing, If you keep a drone in their base for a good period of time you will get an idea of what kind of build they are doing.
Use Changelings, fly and overseer, Sacrifice a speed overlord, it will most likely die but a the cost of 100 minerals you will see their buildings and unit composition

Second your gripes about haveing no anti air i would have agreed with you back in beta when I was a noob and could not handle early void ray and banshee. But you need to learn to scout so you know what the opponent is doing i always have 2-3 queens and a few spore crawlers by the time they get air out. I actually always pray that the opponent goes air cause i am able to stop their air so easily which is a heavy investment for them allowing me to expand and macro a larger ground army or get some mutalisks for a counter attack/harass
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ITT: Ringo makes terrible points and tries to fit square block into round hole.
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Posts: 16
Ringo,

You were being trolled. You are making a very valid point. Intel about what the enemy is doing is worth more than any unit or quantity of resources, and there is a huge asymmetry in Zerg's ability to gain early information versus the opponents ability to scout Zerg.

In future, perform a troll check by checking the profiles of the people who are responding. I hate to just boil it down to a commentors rank, but Myke was doing this yesterday where he was constantly asserting Zerg are fine, but he is 2-of-8 in the Bronze league, so he really has no !#!#ing clue.
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Posts: 2,541
Ringo,

You were being trolled. You are making a very valid point. Intel about what the enemy is doing is worth more than any unit or quantity of resources, and there is a huge asymmetry in Zerg's ability to gain early information versus the opponents ability to scout Zerg.

In future, perform a troll check by checking the profiles of the people who are responding. I hate to just boil it down to a commentors rank, but Myke was doing this yesterday where he was constantly asserting Zerg are fine, but he is 2-of-8 in the Bronze league, so he really has no !#!#ing clue.


Zerg is fine.

Am I qualified enough to make this statement?

On the "problems" of zerg scouting... Think of protoss. How do you think they scout a terran? Wait for an observer? So a protoss player is completely in the dark until getting a robotics facility. At least zerg can scout them with overlords.
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Posts: 69
I think that overlord speed should be upgradable at hatchery tech and go back to 50/50. We need the scouting info to have a chance at winning major battles.

We also do not have units that can be exponentially worthwhile like the other races. Two reapers can be devistating, two hellions, two banshees, two void rays, two dark templars, thor dropship. The best harass we have are speedling (which a wall off counters) and mutalisks which takes a good number to be effective and is highly predictable because of our lack of options at lair tech.
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Posts: 1
I'm a 100% backing Ringo on this one. As a zerg player there is a certain moment in time during the game in which you've already scouted their base, and you've probably just seen maybe one or two gateways, or a one gateway one cybernetics core, if it's terran maybe one or two racks possibly a factory as well and then that's it.. if you're drone stays too long it'll get trapped once they wall in and you lose that drone too and all you've got is a very simple build so far. (I'm talking around 12-15 supply).. then there's a period of darkness.. where it's stupid to use overlords when they don't have a speed upgrade.. and you can't go in through the front door (since it's walled off). This is the time in the game Ringo's talking about when they either tech up fast or build a mass army and you're trying to properly prepare.

As of right now Ringo, I try to stay "general" if that makes sense, I build a few roaches and zerglings.. but I'm making sure I can transition into hydras when need be (again this takes some sort of guessing) but if they're going fast void rays, I'm not too worried since I have at that point at least one queen, maybe two.. if it's a map that has a large distance between the two bases you can sometimes see the void ray just leaving the base... and you'll have time to make another queen, you can also make an early evo chamber (doesn't entirely hurt) and in any case you can throw up some quick spores if u think u need help. The problem with doing this is that you become defensive minded and it can definitely hurt you.. but other than that I can't see what else you can do about it. This is one of the reasons I try and stay away from any fast mutalisk build orders.. because you can't really tell what you're opponent is doing and you're vulnerable for a good 5-8 minutes. Hope this helps
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where it's stupid to use overlords when they don't have a speed upgrade.. and you can't go in through the front door (since it's walled off).


You're so wrong. No wonder you lose, you don't run a unit to the chokepoint to see his unit mix and don't send overlords (without speed mind you) into his main to spot critical buildings.
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Posts: 1,744
In all of these posts it seems like you're fighting the perfect opponent. You're fighting a human who is going to make mistakes. If you're just awful and the guy you're playing is a pro player, then yeah you're going to get rolled over. However, in real life, you're probably fighting someone your own rank who is going to make mistakes.

Like I said before, Zerg do have some issues. However, the situation isn't dire, and you can still win quite a lot. I honestly believe that Zerg require a different type of player than those who favor protoss and terran. I've played a few games of terran and toss after playing Zerg for awhile, and it feels completely different. You can't play Zerg like you play toss and terran, and I think that's where the problems are coming into play.
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Also, I've lost 13 games in diamond league. I don't think any of those games I felt that I played better than my opponent. Each time I lose my opponent plays better than me. You're going to lose games when you don't employ the correct tactics to win.

Square block into round hole. Keep trying it, it'll work eventually!
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Posts: 618
Zerg DOES have early anti-air, they are called queens

you've gotta be joking if you say that queens are not good AA.
Mass Queens + Transfusion = Dead Air Fleet

Hell, Mass Queens can take care of ALOT of possible threats from hellions to zealots...Their attacks/armor upgrades scale well, and the most important part: they only cost Minerals and require no Gas AND takes up no larvae.

You can sure as hell be offensive with them... Load them up in a Nydus Worm and send them into battle. The Nydus Worms create creep so the queens will be able to move around with ease.
Edited by Who on 8/3/2010 12:34 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,362
In all of these posts it seems like you're fighting the perfect opponent. You're fighting a human who is going to make mistakes. If you're just awful and the guy you're playing is a pro player, then yeah you're going to get rolled over. However, in real life, you're probably fighting someone your own rank who is going to make mistakes.

Like I said before, Zerg do have some issues. However, the situation isn't dire, and you can still win quite a lot. I honestly believe that Zerg require a different type of player than those who favor protoss and terran. I've played a few games of terran and toss after playing Zerg for awhile, and it feels completely different. You can't play Zerg like you play toss and terran, and I think that's where the problems are coming into play.


Believe or not, I was 19-1 win-loss at one point, the 1 loss came from disconnecting a placement match 2 minutes into a game. I had great success with just running a zergling into their wall and/or running an overlord into their base for those 19 win streak(the latter ~12 were all vs diamond players, btw) because none of them bothered to hide what they were doing and did exactly what aurum(and I) wants them to do; They all parked their army at their entrance to show them off to me or something and I could tell exactly what they had. If my 1 zergling only saw a small sized army, I'd run an overlord into their base, and oftentimes saw a starport in that winstreak, and I could prepare in an extremely timely manner to my advantage.

Then I started fighting players like a terran who walled off and had 2 marines shooting my zergling as it ran up the ramp(I actually had enough time to react to pull it back before it died), so I ordered an overlord I had nearby and approached from the non-walled side. As soon as it flew near a supply depot he had built, I saw 3 marines approaching. Now, what do I do? I did the smart thing and pulled the overlord back before it died, because even the dumbest moron in the bunch would know that 3 marines would kill the ol before it crawls over to see anything.

Now some of you folks will start suggesting that I fly an overlord from a different side, or even multiple sides at once. First of all, overlords fly stupid-slow, you can't get an overlord where you want it in time(IE your first overlord gets blocked like the situation I described, you order a second overlord), and I don't know what kind of slow-asses you guys are fighting, but I sure as heck can see an opponent's overlord the moment it becomes visible on my minimap(sup spread out supply depots). This is exactly why I offered to play practice games against people who are so damn confident about their extreme scouting skills in that "blind period" I am making this QQ post about.

So I had my 19 win streak, then obviously went 4-14, when I started having to guess / my opponents were downright better / I got unlucky and made mistsakes, etc. While I am fine with the latter two types of losing games, I am extremely annoyed by games where I just flastout lost because I scouted a weak ground force, my overlord scout got blocked, then I got rolled over by massed tier 1 units whlie getting hydra tech / mutalisk tech (or vice versa, but I'm sure most people who actually read posts are getting tired of this description).

Also, I am very well aware that protoss has rough time scouting a terran and other protoss just as much as zerg, but I already covered the difference in the very first post: Zerg has NO ANTI AIR READILY AVAILABLE. A protoss will never get caught completely off-guard by 2 banshees, 2 void rays, or 4 mutalisks because a protoss will always either have a bunch of warp gates and stalkers already out or have taken an air tech himself(not to mention that they can actually rush a techer to either win or show the opponent's full army, knocking on their front door). The problem here is not simple; It is the conjunction of problems of 1) zerg has no tier 1 AA(if you mention that horrid build time queen that's basically a defense structure that consumes 150 minerals and 2 food one more time, I'll eat your first-born), 2) zerg has practically no ranged tier 1(roaches are basically melee) and 3) using equal-minerals, zerg has the weakest army of the three races, forcing the zerg to expand and get more minearls or building defense structures should the other two races decide to do heavy push early game.

Again, I already am aware of sacrificing a zergling and/or overlord to ATTEMPT to scout, the problem here is that those fail, fail very hard, to anyone who is aware of how limited of tools a zerg has in his arsonal to scout.
Edited by Ringo on 8/3/2010 12:44 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,431
i love it how the people who are in silver/bronze league are telling a diamond league player (original poster) how to scout.
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Posts: 1,576
I'd love to see some solid Zerg replays. I'd check out Day 9 ect during beta and it seems like every Zerg vs X replay I picked to watch involved the Zerg player losing (cept Zerg vs Zerg I guess! :)
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