StarCraft® II

Sheth's Zerg Observations

"Hello,

I'd just like to point out several observations I've had in relation to Zerg in SC1 and SC2.

Choke Points (200/200 Army Fights)

In sc1, it was viable for a 200/200 army of zerg units to go up and attack either a terran or a protoss who was simply defending in their base. This 200/200 Army if it included Defilers would definitely be able to at least stop the terran or protoss from mining or pushing out and attacking except through dropship. With solid micro the attack could possibly destroy their whole 200/200 army of defense.

For those of you not familiar with SC1, Dark swarm allowed all zerg units burrowed underneath the area it was cast on to not take damage.(In ZvT The only thing that could hit them would be Firebats or Irradiate, I'm not talking about ZvP here) They also had an ability called Plague, which would bring every unit it was cast upon (except a few) down to 1 hp. These AoE (Area of Effect) spells allowed Zerg to match up with the Terran and Protoss equally in end game tech.

If there was ever a small choke, think Destination and those 2 little ramps into the natural base,(If you don't know destination, simply think the area leading up into Steppes of War's Natural Expansion) the zerg could defend it very well with lurkers and sunkens, our 2 ranged damage dealers. If you threw in Defilers you could defend or attack from those two little ramps. I'm not going to discuss that you could attack with Guardians, because you can do the same with BroodLords. However in SC2 there is no unit that provides a solid "Choke" fight vs. Protoss or Terran. To explain this point better, if you can fit 10 units across and your 10 units will be fighting the opponents 10 units you will have problems. There is no unit composition of Zerg's that will come out on top with these 10 unit vs. 10 unit fights. I'm considering both sides have equal upgrades and a fairly even level of tech. The reason this is so, is because of the incredible range of both Protoss and Terran. "
Edited by FTB on 8/3/2010 9:17 AM PDT
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Zerg's several ranged units are as follows : The Roach (3) The Hydralisk (5-6) The BroodLord (9?) The Infestor (5-9) The Mutalisk (5?) and The Queen (3-6). The main abilities these units can use are simply to attack. Hydralisks have high DPS, roaches have high armor (1 lol), Infestors have a strong AoE bind and a mind control ability, Broodlords have the best ability to constantly produce dps and tank units. With a proper combination of units, Roach Hydralisk BroodLord and Infestor vs. Protoss or Terran you will have a very strong ranged force. If you toss in ultralisks as tanks you will have the strongest zerg army at attacking a fortified position.

Now lets discuss what other races can do, that will enable them to turtle comfortably no matter what you as a zerg throw at them.

Terran : The Wings of Liberty have apparently freed the terran to have a unit to counter each of the zerg's units. They have Marauders with Tanks, Thors, Vikings and Planetary Fortresses to defend. These units when used with any sort of micro (Healing / Sieging / Stim) Will be able to stop a much MUCH larger zerg force. Tanks have such a large range as with vikings that no matter what unit composition you throw at him, he can remain in his position and hold Especially well if your attacking a small choke point. His tanks will deal AoE damage, his Thors will tank all of your damage, along with marauders. (Both of those units can heal faster then a roach burrowed (Think medivacs, scvs)). I havn't even mentioned the Planetary fortress in defending.

While attacking a planetary fortress you will literally need a HUGE army to defeat it. The terran can simply heal it while moving his army to pick off your units as they have concaved around the Planetary. My point here is that against a terran in an equal space their units will almost always have the advantage. Zerg's CANNOT push terran's in a proper choke back!

Protoss : This I don't see as quite as much of a problem as I do with terran. I feel like Protoss doesn't have too strong of a counter to broodlords, ultralisks and hydralisks if properly proportioned. However I will say that with Immortals, Storm, and Collosi they can defend a small choke area Very Very well. So it is possible to push a Protoss player back and do some damage. We can also dropship against protoss. We cannot dropship against terrans, because with several sentry towers the terran will be able to see the drop coming and plan accordingly. I think the match up of ZvP is fairly well balanced and we will have to see how early game works out, and how large armies will fight.

The point of my observations, is that in SC1 Zerg had a viable unit to delay mining and push a terran or protoss player back. The defiler allowed the zerg's army to have almost equal strength or higher strength then that of the Terran or Protoss. I feel that if Zerg doesn't get something that will allow us to both attack and defend small choke points (Broodlords? Yes in ZvP, Not so in ZvT -- Ranged on Vikings is exceptionally long)
then the Zerg vs. Terran match up will continue to deteriorate into Zerg's such as myself whining about more things then just choke points.

Thanks for reading, Sheth"

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140800
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No 200 supply army can take on protoss in a choke point.

Not even other protoss.
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ITT: SC2 and SC1 are different games and play differently.

In SC1, it was extremely easy for every race to expand. In pro-games, sometimes terran and protoss would out-expand zerg, and the zerg would win. In SC2, only zerg can plop expansions everywhere and feel safe, as protoss and terran armies need to leave their base to kill it, while 10 speedlings could destroy a protoss or terran expansion if not properly defended.
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I dont ever feel safe when i get a new expansion, Why? well my units move super slow off creep, only exception is speedlings and i have hardly any anti air besides hydras, and speedlings cannot attack air, and hydras cannot move fast enough to deal with the harassment.
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I dont ever feel safe when i get a new expansion, Why? well my units move super slow off creep, only exception is speedlings and i have hardly any anti air besides hydras, and speedlings cannot attack air, and hydras cannot move fast enough to deal with the harassment.


Make more queens. Expand creep everywhere. You'll also be able to defend against air harassment.
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Well yeah thats what i do, its just still, i never feel safe. Plus queens suck for anti air. I think one queen should be able to take out one void. But nope.
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Very accurate and good post. <3 Sheth and good to hear that he shares the common opinions about balance at present. Maybe post this in the main multiplayer forums alongside the IdrA and Tester thread.
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Very accurate and good post. <3 Sheth and good to hear that he shares the common opinions about balance at present. Maybe post this in the main multiplayer forums alongside the IdrA and Tester thread.


3 largest prize pool tournaments so far:
HDH invitational
Day9's KOTB
Kaspersky Cup

HDH invitational: White-Ra wins $2000, IdrA wins $1000
KOTB: IdrA wins $2000, tester wins $1000
Kaspersky Cup: Sen wins $1750, TLO wins $875

So that's $3000 for protoss, $4750 for zerg.
Hmm... Well it looks like real players can make it work. You can't attack-move into a protoss/terran army and win? IMBALANCE!!!
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To say that terran and protoss cannot fast expand is total bull, ive seen alot in the beta and not so much in the release but protoss still has their forge fast expand and even more options to FE, terran has the barracks into FE build where then they just put down 4 more barracks and pump out marines and have a few bunkers, all fast expanding takes risk and just because most players do not know the timing to expand (when the enemy is forced back into his base: meaning after a good push then reatreating your army, harassment with pheonix or banshee or mutas if vs zerg) to say that zerg can "expand more" is not true to get equal value meaning 10 food like a command center or a nexus zerg must build an overlord with the hatchery meaning it does cost 400 (450) if you take the drone into account.

The reason why zerg expands all the time is because they need to, zerg cannot keep up with 1 base production on 1 base but can match it with 2 basses, a zerg player needs to know when to power drones to get the economic advantage to start winning, this is why presure early game on zerg is very VERY strong, LZ gamer took it to a whole new level with his mass speed reaper build, able to take down anything zerg can throw at them as long as they have more range(anything before T2 for zerg), reapers pwning roaches? sounds funny doesint it. This early presure slows down the economy of zerg because instead of drones needs to build units, other races do not have to choose in between the 2. So to keep up production zerg needs to be ahead in basses and economy, if there is a need people will find strats to do it.

So saying zerg can expand more is incorrect instead what should be said is zerg NEEDS to expand more and so does it.
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Aurum, you are commenting on player skill rather than racial balances. you will also note that in the top 3 largest prize pool tournaments terran won a total of $0 compared to zergs $4750 and protoss' $3000. therefore terran is ridiculously underpowered, not only are they not a viable option for professional tier players but they can not even compete at any levels of play since what is true for the best players in the game is aplicable to everyone.

since i doubt you will understand my sarcasm as you were unable to understand what the data in you own post shows i will break it down for you. Zerg have issues breaking entrenched positions, more so than in the first game, this does not make zerg a less viable choice at high levels of play because high level zerg players avoid doing this unless they have a significant advantage. this however affects lower level zerg players which is not represented in how much money the best players in the beta won.

edited to fix typo
Edited by Potent on 8/3/2010 11:23 AM PDT
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Very accurate and good post. <3 Sheth and good to hear that he shares the common opinions about balance at present. Maybe post this in the main multiplayer forums alongside the IdrA and Tester thread.




So that's $3000 for protoss, $4750 for zerg.
Hmm... Well it looks like real players can make it work. You can't attack-move into a protoss/terran army and win? IMBALANCE!!!


It's only imbalanced that we can't a-move over armies because they can a-move over us.
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Aurum, you are commenting on player skill rather than racial balances. you will also note that in the top 3 largest prize pool tournaments terran won a total of $0 compared to zergs $4750 and protoss' $3000. therefore terran is ridiculously underpowered, not only are they not a viable option for professional tier players but they can not even compete at any levels of play since what is true for the best players in the game is aplicable to everyone.

since i doubt you will understand my sarcasm as you were unable to understand what the data in you own post shows i will break it down for you. Zerg have issues breaking entrenched positions, more so than in the first game, this does not make zerg a less viable choice at high levels of play because high level zerg players avoid doing this unless they have a significant advantage. this however affects lower level zerg players which is not represented in how much money the best players in the beta won.

edited to fix typo


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Zerg need to be buffed because weaker players are bad?
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Very accurate and good post. <3 Sheth and good to hear that he shares the common opinions about balance at present. Maybe post this in the main multiplayer forums alongside the IdrA and Tester thread.




So that's $3000 for protoss, $4750 for zerg.
Hmm... Well it looks like real players can make it work. You can't attack-move into a protoss/terran army and win? IMBALANCE!!!


It's only imbalanced that we can't a-move over armies because they can a-move over us.


Actually they can't. Protoss need a lot of good force field placement to beat roach/hydra and terran need to leap-frog tanks and have great hellion micro to win.
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It's only imbalanced that we can't a-move over armies because they can a-move over us.


If you want to do nothing but 1-base and attack move, then don't play zerg.

Some of us appreciate the different complexities to each race.

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Aurum, you are commenting on player skill rather than racial balances. you will also note that in the top 3 largest prize pool tournaments terran won a total of $0 compared to zergs $4750 and protoss' $3000. therefore terran is ridiculously underpowered, not only are they not a viable option for professional tier players but they can not even compete at any levels of play since what is true for the best players in the game is aplicable to everyone.

since i doubt you will understand my sarcasm as you were unable to understand what the data in you own post shows i will break it down for you. Zerg have issues breaking entrenched positions, more so than in the first game, this does not make zerg a less viable choice at high levels of play because high level zerg players avoid doing this unless they have a significant advantage. this however affects lower level zerg players which is not represented in how much money the best players in the beta won.

edited to fix typo


I'm saying that in bronze league, zerg players can't handle spawn larvae just like terran players can't consistently make units from 4 structures.

Why exactly is someone attacking an entrenched position? Bad choices lose games. It's a strategy game, not a "why can't I plow through turtles?!?!?" game.

Zerg who post on these forums would lose just as much if they switched their race as they do now. Sheth on the other hand, which is why I mentioned pro play, as Sheth is "pro" (he hasn't won anything though), is making an idiotic point. Why is he attacking an entrenched position? Is he stupid? He sounds like the people who post on these forums. If someone is entrenched, they are turtling and will lose the game if the zerg expands. This happens all the time in pro play. Sheth knows this, so I'm confused why he even makes this point.

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Hmm... Well it looks like real players can make it work. You can't attack-move into a protoss/terran army and win? IMBALANCE!!!


Big thing is really is the learning curve / skill argument I guess. Not that it can't be managed, but there's a lot of players out there who are just casual, as well, and the amount of frustration they're probably going through at being unable to bust ZvT has to be pretty incredible.
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Aurum, you are commenting on player skill rather than racial balances. you will also note that in the top 3 largest prize pool tournaments terran won a total of $0 compared to zergs $4750 and protoss' $3000. therefore terran is ridiculously underpowered, not only are they not a viable option for professional tier players but they can not even compete at any levels of play since what is true for the best players in the game is aplicable to everyone.

since i doubt you will understand my sarcasm as you were unable to understand what the data in you own post shows i will break it down for you. Zerg have issues breaking entrenched positions, more so than in the first game, this does not make zerg a less viable choice at high levels of play because high level zerg players avoid doing this unless they have a significant advantage. this however affects lower level zerg players which is not represented in how much money the best players in the beta won.

edited to fix typo


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Zerg need to be buffed because weaker players are bad?


im only trying to say that using how much money each race won in 3 beta tournaments is a completely invalid way to comment on racial balance.
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