StarCraft® II

ZvP Zealot>Zergling???

Posts: 618
I've read many posts saying Zealots > Zerglings but I cant seem to understand this.
How exactly does Zealots hard/soft counter zerglings?

Zealots cost 100 minerals while the Zerg can make 4 Zerglings with those minerals.

And it is easily seen that 4 Zerglings > 1 Zealot.

Even in Larger Numbers... such as 20 Zealots

It is easily seen that 80 Zerglings > 20 Zealots

The food cost for 4 Zergling also equal the food cost for 1 Zealot

If you say the problem is the larvae count, then does that mean that in late-game when Zerg would have 2-3 bases with with queens, Zealots would not do that great against Zerglings as Larvae count is not such a great of an issue?
Edited by Who on 8/3/2010 3:33 PM PDT
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Posts: 415
1)Lots with +1 attack more than zerg armor 2 shots lings
2) Lots with their back to each other/no surrouded will chop apart an insanely large amount of lings before they go down.

Lings are better than lots when they get the surround and have equal armor upgrade to lots attack.

The are in my book a soft counter with a upgrade considerations.
Edited by Raptor on 8/3/2010 3:36 PM PDT
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Posts: 618
So... Zealots are not the "Hard Counter" against Zerglings and is Even depending on the terrain?

It seems to me that the Protoss has no "Hard Counter" against Zerglings... A soft counter against them perhaps, with colossus.

Why doesn't many players, even pros Spam Zerglings in ZvP as they seem to be a very effective unit with little or no hard counters against them?

Even the Speedy annoying Stalkers would have trouble against equally costed number of Zerglings as they are also not hard counter to the zerglings and would get pummeled in open areas.

Only unit i can think of that might be a hard counter is an Archon but I would have to see how long it would take to obtain enough of them to deal with the Zerglings and rather or not the Zerg can respond accordingly with the appearance of Archon or if it is even possible to get enough of them to make a difference

With the upgrade issue, a player purposely playing ZvP and planning to mass zerglings against protoss ground would most likely then not get the carapace upgrade
Edited by Who on 8/3/2010 3:46 PM PDT
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Posts: 100
It is all about positioning and wether zerglings can get the surround. Obviously speedlings are much better at surrounding and can take out lots easily, but in such few numbers, its hard for the zerg player to get the surround he needs. Keep in mind, when the protoss player is making zealots, hes also making probes.
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Posts: 618
in such few numbers, its hard for the zerg player to get the surround he needs.

Why exactly would Zerg have fewer number of Zerglings then Protoss' zealot cost equivaliant?

Keep in mind, when the protoss player is making zealots, hes also making probes.

Yes, and for every two probes he makes he loses 1 potential zealot, which means 4 less Zerglings that a zerg player would have to produce and two extra larvae to do something else, such as making drones.
Edited by Who on 8/3/2010 3:59 PM PDT
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Posts: 100
in such few numbers, its hard for the zerg player to get the surround he needs.

Why exactly would Zerg have fewer number of Zerglings then Protoss' zealot cost equivaliant?

Keep in mind, when the protoss player is making zealots, hes also making probes.

Yes, and for every two probes he makes he loses 1 potential zealot.


why would zerg have fewer lings? because zerg wants to drone hard.

do you know how the larvae system works? usually minerals isnt the limiting factor in worker production. zerg cant build that drone because the larvae was used to make zerglings. you are so narrow minded. protoss doesnt lose the potential for anything because of queues, and the fact minerals are so abundant in the game.
Edited by Dance on 8/3/2010 3:59 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,350
It seems to me that the Protoss has no "Hard Counter" against Zerglings... A soft counter against them perhaps, with colossus.

Why doesn't many players, even pros Spam Zerglings in ZvP as they seem to be a very effective unit with little or no hard counters against them?

Even the Speedy annoying Stalkers would have trouble against equally costed number of Zerglings as they are also not hard counter to the zerglings and would get pummeled in open areas.


I have no idea why you're feigning ignorance; Have you never tried building mass lings against a protoss, especially late game, and get obliterated by an army(or even 4-5) of colossus before even getting a single hit off? The lings' main strength lies in their small size and incredible speed, their main weakness also lies in their small size as well as their extremely lo HP(lowest HP unit, even lower than workers, afaik). The "hard counters" you are asking for against lings exist for every race. For zerg, banelings. For terrans, tank/hellions. For protoss, colossus/zealot. If both of your armies are composed of units of at least 50 food(note: not much at all) with these units, then zerglings will lose against any of these combos without reducing the opponent's army to even half. In the protoss and terran's cases, you might not even kill a single unit if you just attack move them and AI sends them in a single line against a bunch of tanks on choked ramp or something.

TLDR: Zerglings NEED an open ground, and NEED to surround to be the effective powerhouse you are describing them to be. I don't know about you, but I extremely rarely get to surround an opponent late game with at least 50 food worth of armies involved, since both sides' armies die rather fast(especially problematic for the low hp zerglings, who don't survive long enough to get a surround before dealing the significant damage.
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Posts: 618
protoss doesnt lose the potential for anything because of queues, and the fact minerals are so abundant in the game.


I don't understand what you mean by queues... you don't produce two units at once when you queue 2 units, in-fact you waste potential money which could be used.

you are so narrow minded.

Yes, Begin by insulting. Such childish behavior.

do you know how the larvae system works? usually minerals isnt the limiting factor in worker production.

It actually is the limiting factor as a mineral is a resource you need to build hatcheries/queens which in turn produces larvae.

They zerg cant build that drone because the larvae was used to make zerglings

Why would the zerg need to build that zergling if the protoss did not make that potential zealot?
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Posts: 415
So... Zealots are not the "Hard Counter" against Zerglings and is Even depending on the terrain?

It seems to me that the Protoss has no "Hard Counter" against Zerglings... A soft counter against them perhaps, with colossus.

Why doesn't many players, even pros Spam Zerglings in ZvP as they seem to be a very effective unit with little or no hard counters against them?

Even the Speedy annoying Stalkers would have trouble against equally costed number of Zerglings as they are also not hard counter to the zerglings and would get pummeled in open areas.

Only unit i can think of that might be a hard counter is an Archon but I would have to see how long it would take to obtain enough of them to deal with the Zerglings and rather or not the Zerg can respond accordingly with the appearance of Archon or if it is even possible to get enough of them to make a difference

With the upgrade issue, a player purposely playing ZvP and planning to mass zerglings against protoss ground would most likely then not get the carapace upgrade


One of the main reason you don't see zerg using lots of lings in late game play is how effective roach hydra -> Roach/hydra/Ultra. Roaches come with 1 base armor which cuts zealot damage from 16 per swing to 14. Get +1 armor for roaches they go down to 12 damage +2 armor down to 10. If I'm massing roach hydra I move one 2/2 upgrades so against the roaches (assuming you have not upgraded your attacks) your only doing 12 damage per swing to my hydras (assuming you get patch the roaches) and 10 to the roaches. There are only 3 things that worry me at this stage. lots of immortals. colo and HT. With the late game addition of Ultra's you can remove both immortals and colo's from that list (and Ht's only hope is hitting my hydra's with storms).

Where keeping lings you have to worry about colo (with good lot support) sentries for FF, Archons, HT's and last but not least early on lings eat alot of larva so getting a massive amount will cut into early drone production. These are the reasons in my books why mass lings really are not used a lot beyond expansion hunting in ZvP. Or probe sniping if you get the chance.
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Posts: 618
I am not arguing ZvT as zerglings are clearly easily countered in ZvT with large number of hellions or some sort.

I am only arguing that Zerglings would be a v

For protoss, colossus/zealot.

Yes, the zerg has done nothing but mass zerglings while protoss techs up to colossus... (Note Sarcasm)
Edited by Who on 8/3/2010 4:17 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,350
I am not arguing ZvT as zerglings are clearly easily countered in ZvT with large number of hellions or some sort.

I am only arguing that Zerglings would be a v

For protoss, colossus/zealot.

Yes, the zerg has done nothing but mass zerglings while protoss techs up to colossus... (Note Sarcasm)

I don't know where your sarcasm lies in; You sure as hell aren't pushing to victory with all zergling army. In fact, I don't think zerg can rush to victory in any competitive play against a walled opponent(unless he power teched with 1 gateway while you went all-in zergling baneling to bust down walled bulidings, but thats obviously a very, very hard fail scouting on his part. Then again, scouting a zerg is extremely difficult).
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Posts: 9
Zerglings aren't spammed against protoss because of one word:

sentries.
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